Helping Kids Thrive: Inside Pediatric Occupational Therapy with John Murray

In this episode of Thanks for Doing That, host Heather Winchell sits down with John Murray, pediatric occupational therapist and founder of Murray Therapy in Northern Colorado. From his newly remodeled, play-filled clinic space, John shares how his four decades in OT have shaped a deeply relational, strengths-based approach to helping kids and families.

John explains what pediatric occupational therapy really is—supporting the “occupations” of childhood: being a son or daughter, sibling, friend, learner, mover, and social explorer. 

They dive into practical signs a child might benefit from OT, how modern life and screens are shaping kids’ nervous systems, and simple, powerful habits—like reading, outdoor play, and relational presence—that help children thrive. John talks about how OT looks beneath “behavior” to what’s happening in the nervous system, and why early intervention can change the trajectory not only for a child, but for the whole family system.

Books & Frameworks

• Mona Delahooke – Brain-Body Parenting: How to Stop Managing Behavior and Start Raising Joyful, Resilient Kids
  Discussed as a key resource for understanding the connection between behavior, the nervous system, and sensory processing.
• Jonathan Haidt – The Anxious Generation
  Referenced in the context of how screens, social media, and modern culture impact kids’ mental health and nervous systems.
• Patrick Lencioni – The Working Genius Framework
  Mentioned as a model for understanding different “geniuses” at work (e.g., ideation, galvanizing, tenacity) and how people complement each other on teams.
• Dr. Seuss – Oh, the Places You’ll Go!
  A favorite read-aloud in the Murray home, especially the section on “The Waiting Place,” used as a parenting tool and shared reference point with his kids.
• Hank the Cowdog series (John R. Erickson)
  Cited as part of the Murray family’s shared reading life and the stories they still reference together.
• The Immortal Irishman: The Irish Revolutionary Who Became an American Hero (Timothy Egan)
  A favorite adult read of John’s, tied to his interest in Irish history and heritage.
• Children’s Books on Feelings & Behavior
  John references a general category of picture books such as The Way I Feel / The Way I Act–type titles that help kids understand emotions and choices.

Catch more of the story @thanks.for.doing.that.podcast! 

Transcript

Heather Winchell: 0:00

Heather, hey, there you are listening to Thanks for doing that, a podcast celebrating people and ideas that make this world a better place. I am Heather Winchell, your host and chief enthusiast, and I'm on a mission to bring you conversations that encourage, inspire and delight. So stay tuned for another episode where we explore the things we do, the reasons we do them, and why it matters. You John, All right, hello and welcome back today. I am joined by John Murray. John is owner and founder of Murray therapy and northern Colorado based practice, which specializes in pediatric occupational therapy. He and his team operate from a strong conviction that every child should have the self confidence, strength and skills that they need to live their fullest life, and today, I have the pleasure of being in John's therapy space, so you might even hear some sounds of delight coming from the other room as kiddos are engaged in their session. So our family was introduced to John a little over a year ago, and our experience working with Murray therapy has just been incredible, and it is my joy to have him join me today. John, welcome. Thank you, and I would love to just kick off our conversation with a snapshot of what life looks like for you right now.

John Murray: 1:37

Well, we have made some changes here at Murray therapy. We did a remodel that is still getting remodeled. We have three treatment rooms and a small office, and it's all together. And this is a new step for us, because now all three rooms are connected, so we don't have three separate treatment spaces. We now have three therapy spaces, and so we're looking about how to redo the model of how we present to with our families and the kids that we work with in this new, forced, family friendly therapy space, because you have to walk through one room to get to the other rooms and things like this. So, and I'm kind of excited. I like change, and this is a good thing. Coming to memory

Heather Winchell: 2:24

therapy, yeah, that's great. That's great. And outside of Mary therapy, I get the sense that you love being active, maybe being outdoors.

John Murray: 2:32

Oh yeah, I do. Well, used to be a biker, but I'm a biker hiking, family exercise. We have a dog that likes to walk. We're empty nesters. Our three sons have launched, and so we're not chasing anybody around sports anymore. It's been a minute, but no, keep it pretty active.

Heather Winchell: 2:50

Yeah, that's great. Were you? Is that like road biking, or mountain biking, or all of the above?

John Murray: 2:55

Road biking? Mainly nice. I think so. Had some.

Heather Winchell: 2:58

Yeah, I think it's pretty incredible, because there's a lot of road bikers in Colorado, but you have to have an incredible amount of trust for drivers to do that.

John Murray: 3:07

I feel, yes, yeah, yeah. And that's and that has changed over the over the time, because I don't do this as freely as I used to do it when I was young, sure.

Heather Winchell: 3:18

Well, I can just imagine just the prevalence of maybe distracted driving, people being on phones. I don't know, it just I've thought of road biking, and for the reasons of, like, how safe is that anymore, I've I've not done it

John Murray: 3:30

yet, but I do want to do a little segue about the road biking, because when I was young and I first got out of school, and I was an OT for a couple years, I had a vision like, How can I delay growing up? And I talked some buddies into we did a road trip, a bike trip from Seattle to LA and LA to Atlantic City for Children's Foundation in Philadelphia. And it's one of the things that still stays with me, because it's one of those things where this is before cell phones and four credit cards. And it was amazing how many people we met, and how many people just took us in. And it was crazy. And I just, I always, I kind of looked back there was a long time. It was 1984 It was the year of the Olympics, and people were asking for the Olympians, or something like this. I will tell you that experience, how grateful we were with people just, you know, you kind of, when you're on a bicycle, you're kind of, like, not very threatening, right, pulling up to the Grand Canyon, or pulling up and showering in people's houses we've never met before. You know, people taking us out to dinner. It was, it was, it was quite the experience. Oh, I bet it's great to be young. Yeah, wow.

Heather Winchell: 4:44

How many? How many miles do you figure

John Murray: 4:46

that way we would 5600, because I calculated it, yeah, what was the span of time now we took all summer. We had Memorial Day to Labor Day. We finished in Atlantic City on Labor Day. 1984 that's. Inspiring. Yeah, it was, it was pretty fun. It was pretty good. And I'm still best of friends with those people that we traveled a long time.

Heather Winchell: 5:09

Oh, I can imagine that kind of experience with people really galvanizes a friendship.

John Murray: 5:14

Yes, it does, yeah. And it gives you appreciation for driving across the Midwest on a car or flying, right? Right? Because there's a lot, there's a lot of this country in the middle of the middle of this country, yeah,

Heather Winchell: 5:25

although, I guess once you get past Colorado, it's probably quite flat, huh? Yes.

John Murray: 5:32

But which is nice, which is nice, yes. But people are exceptional, yeah. You know, people are exceptional. Still have the law. One of my friends kept contact with somebody for 30 years. Wow, kind of thing. And, and it's, it's, it's pretty it was a pretty great thing to do.

Heather Winchell: 5:48

Very cool. What a fun start to this conversation. John, okay, so what we are talking about today is occupational therapy, yes. And for people out there that might not know exactly where that fits in the different types of therapy people can pursue. Could you just give us an overview of the specialty?

John Murray: 6:08

Yeah, I'll give you John Murray overview. If you talked a bunch of OTs, you're going to get a bunch of different because it's not as concrete. It's very gray. But one of the things that I like, because people would ask me, like, I know what occupation is, and I know what therapy is, but I don't know what occupational therapy is. And then also, what are you doing with these kids? You know, what's the occupation? And Heather in my mind, like, when I get chance, when somebody asks me, I'll say, you know, like the occupation of a child is like, first am I going to be a son or a daughter? I have to be a sibling. I need to be, you know, hopefully a friend, a learner or communicator, a mover and a Social Explorer. So it kind of gets this wide band, you know, bandwidth, as far as like this encompasses like, everything John I'm like, it sort of does, which is a blessing and, you know, and a curse sometimes, or something like this. And then I tell parents, okay, so what composite skills does the child need when they're a baby, like when they're a toddler, when they're preschooler, and when they're transitioned to kindergarten, you know, when they go to first and second grade and they're in middle school, you know, high school. And that's the thing. I just think that people don't understand, like, you know, kid needs to be able to feed themselves, dress themselves, you know, get their backpack, you know, there's a whole list of things they need to do. And you have a couple friends, it's great if they can play a sport or, you know, they have some direction, or they have some learning challenges, or some attentional challenges, you know, kind of thing, it's like, okay, I can you make this kid and this parents and this family's life? You know, better by intervening kind of thing. And I tell people that ask, like, you asked Heather, I said, you know, it's a combination of they said, you know, we're directing the nervous system, and then we're also, like, psychologically, you know, it's all about, you know, a lot of the referrals and things like this recently are all about behaviors. You know, kid won't sit still, kid won't sit for a circle. Kid, you know, is screaming, yelling, you know, dysregulated and things like this and like, Okay, so what's missing in the nervous system? And I don't know, I just think that occupational therapists are kind of trained and wired to do a pretty good job of, you know, being that investigative, kind of like, nervous system. Person that you know, helps, you know, helps make the neurological connection, right?

Heather Winchell: 8:28

Yeah. And I've really loved that just my time in, you know, working with you, seeing you work with the kiddos, I really love what a generous view you have towards kids, and kind of coming at it from the angle of, like, hey, you know what, what might not be, what bridges might need to be built in the brain or, or, how can we help, versus just being quick to say that a kid is making bad choices, or something like that. You know, I think we all sometimes just make bad choices, but a lot of times, there really can be an explanation for what's going on. And I really, I really appreciated the emphasis you've had on being very generous towards kids in the way things are manifesting. But what's actually going on underneath that? Tell me why you went into this specialty, what was the path towards this career, and then with that, maybe tell me about founding your own practice.

John Murray: 9:17

Okay, I have four older siblings, and I'm the youngest of them around the youngest of five, and when it came my time to like, Okay, what am I going to do with my life? You know, kind of thing, and all four of them were in health care. My old sister was respiratory therapist. My brother was a physical therapist. My next sister was an RN, and my other sister had a degree in recreational therapy, but she was a licensed practical nurse and and I don't know, and I didn't know anything about occupational therapy at the time, and I was trying to be like my brother, and I saw he had a hard time getting into PT school, and I'm like, I can't, I don't know what I'm going to do. And I just. Happened to find this in the library, that there was a thing called occupational therapy. And I'm like, I'll give it a shot. At the time in 1979 only 4% of the profession was male. And I was like, wow, oh, I think I used reverse discrimination because of whatever, because my sisters at the time, they were like, hey, guess what? Things were changing in the Murray household. So we weren't the 1950s brothers and sons anymore kind of thing. So anyway, so I kind of came around about and then the other thing I thought about this is that I actually went to Catholic school for 12 years and actually kind of liked it different. But one of the things is that, you know, take care of those That's fortunate. Yeah, the nuns were pretty good and about reinforcing that. And I don't know, kind of stuck so, and I'm thinking, hey, I can get a job, I can help others, and I can get paid. Oh, and the other thing I was really good at when I was younger, and I trying to stay good at is playing like, I just like to play, you know. Kind of thing, playing with kids, coaching, doing other things, hanging out with the nieces and nephews, and things like this. I haven't I'm trying to keep it as much of the playful nature, you know, as I can. Kind of thing, life's too short. Life too serious, you know?

Heather Winchell: 11:18

Thing, well, that's great, because actually, a listener before we hit record. I was telling John that the other day, when we got home, one of my kids said, Yep, Mr. John is the best. And I think it's because they have no idea that they're in any kind of therapy. I think they just come to play, and they have all these ideas about, hopefully, the activity that you'll have them do. But I think that playfulness is so engaging with the kiddos that you work with, so it's very evident. Thank you. Okay, so how about the second part of that question? How did you launch into building Marie therapy?

John Murray: 11:53

Well, we go work for other people, you know, and you find out the things that you like and the things that you don't like. And I think, and you bounce around a little bit because I had worked in New Jersey, and then I had worked in a camp when I was in New Jersey up in Canada for a summer, because I never went to camp as a kid, but I got to go to camp as an OT and then, I don't know, worked in Washington state for a while at a children's hospital, and got to be a manager and a supervisor, and I realized that, geez, I don't want to really do that for the rest of my life. And then all sudden, I'm like, yeah, good to be in your 30s. And, like, I think it would be good to just try this on our own, and helps. My wife is also an OT and very organized and structured, and somebody that, you know, I think I can make this work. If I have this, you know, I have these parameters and and boundaries and things like this. And it worked pretty well. We had to practice in Washington State, and then I got a whim that, like, Hey, I think I want to move my kids closer to their grandparents that are still living. And we just took a, you know, that's the nice thing about the therapy field. You can kind of work pretty much anywhere. But it's, you know, comes with its territory. From coming here, I got a job in the school district in Greeley for, you know, a couple days a week, and I had, you know, just wanted to open up my own business, and I had an eight hour day. I had a kid at eight o'clock and a kid I took, it's one in eight o'clock and one at five o'clock. And I my, I had a nice office in Old Town, Fort Collins, and I was super grateful. I have a shout out to Anne Penley, who's not with us anymore, but she just took me on, and she hung in there, and she made my rent very doable. And you know, now I see 10 kids a day. Wow. Yeah, thing so,

Heather Winchell: 13:49

yeah, you spoke to how you guys have expanded the space you have to work with kiddos. And that's great, because, as I understand, you pretty much always have a list of kiddos to incorporate. It's a very sought out practice, which maybe you wouldn't say for yourself, but I can say for you that among parents, your name comes up a lot. So what started as two kids a day is now a thriving practice, 10 kids a day. I don't know how you keep that all straight, because that's a lot of different little people.

John Murray: 14:19

There's a lot of different people, and that's why Michelle is my wife. And just like, you know, kind of helps keep the keeps the keeps the structure and predictability, and I keep the ideas and the playfulness, and it kind of kind of works and and I, you know, getting back to your question, and it was always the idea about, like, hey, how many, how many families can we help?

Heather Winchell: 14:44

Yeah, so that's really great. I'm curious, just with the comment you made about your wife. Have you ever heard of the working genius? No, okay, one of my prior guests this season spoke to the working genius. It's a framework for how we show up to work, and it's six. Different geniuses. And I'm asking because you just said you have the ideas, you bring the play, and I, according to the working genius, would be an innovator and a galvanizer. So I bring the ideas, and I bring the like getting people behind a vision. But there's other people in the working genius that might be the tenacity, so the details, person or enablement, the people that kind of helped, you know, land the plane by jumping in to do what needs to be done. And so I would be curious what your working geniuses would be, and what Michelle's would be, and it sounds like they're different. Oh, yeah. So you guys work well together on a team, because you've got more representation from the geniuses. So you should check it out. I will. Yeah, okay, so I'm curious. I'd love to just start off with some practical help. What are some indicators for parents or caregivers that a child in their life could benefit from occupational therapy, and what would you say is at stake if they never take the steps to get that for the kiddo?

John Murray: 15:59

Okay, that's a good question. I am still, like, parental, you know, gut feeling or inner sense, because I've heard stories, because I've been doing this for a few years, and parents will say, I just, you know, I keep bringing it up to the doctor, I keep bringing it up, and somebody says, you know, like, you're just overthinking it, or, you know, they'll grow outgrow it, or something like this. And I'm, I tend to be on the other side as far as, like, early interventions, like, super important, because these kids are identifying themselves as like, This is who I am, a bad kid. I need to be reprimanded. I need to, you know, like this. And they're not bad kids. It's just that, like, they're annoying. They can be annoying and kind of less, like, hard to like sometimes, I'm talking from the parent perspective and things like this. So part of that is the inner sense, you know, coming from that. And then I tell parents all the time. I said this morning, I'm like, the kids are compare and contrast themselves all the time. And I said, and so do parents like you go to a play date and you're like, you're the only kid that like won't engage with the other kids, or your kids holding their ears when it's a, you know, the birthday party's happening, or, you know, you got the kid who's the last kid in the water for the pool party, and someone's saying, you know, that's because Mary's shy. And I'm like, and I just totally disagree with people. I'm like, There's not shy kids swim in the water. That's a sensory thing. If the kid doesn't get their head wet or afraid to get their eyes, you know, water splashing their eyes. So, you know, like, for the parent the sea that, like, I don't know, Something's just not and I'm like, you know, I'm hoping that our practice is non threatening. Like, I am not looking to, like, make more business. I'm I want to be here to, you know, like, the goal with Murray therapy is to make kid as independent, as competent as possible, you know, competent, confident, and for the parent like I, you know, like, because I know you guys, is, you know, just a relief that, like, Hey, I'm not, you know, way out of bounds. As far as being a parent, like I'm over anxious, or I'm overthinking things, something, you know, I got a kid who can't hold a pencil Well, or runs away when it's time for reading, or, you know, can't go to sleep by himself, and things like this. So I just know that that's really, like important for the parent to know it. And it's almost like the parent has to know because most of the doesn't come out all the time in the you know, the wealth checks with a 20 or 30 minute doctor visit.

Heather Winchell: 18:27

What's at stake if maybe some of these things aren't addressed?

John Murray: 18:31

I feel like more work on the parents part, because then the parent starts becoming like, over protector. I have to be there all the time for her him, because I need I tell parents. I said, you know, right now, like you're their interpreter. It's kind of like you're they were in a foreign country, and they can't go anywhere with the mom. This is why transitions are hard at preschool, and why, you know, can't go over on sleepovers, you know, things like this, because I need a parent. I need somebody there to guide me, and that because the parent reads the sensory cues and the behavior cues really well. However, they're the parent with the kid. That's the only kid in the group that needs the parent to be there. So I feel as if you know it's just for some of the parents own self assuredness. Maybe I don't know if that's the right word. And actually the bigger thing is, like, without getting services, this kid will be more work for the parent, and then you have more work for the parent, then you have two parents, like, maybe not parenting the same. I mean, it's really hard for parents to parent the same way, exactly, because I'm also a parent, and Michelle and I didn't always do that the same way. However, like, without being addressed, it's, it's more work, and then it's, then it's name, you have other kids, and there's a little extra stress in the family, and there's all, there's all these other things to to do. And you know, this kid is, you know, fluctuates from being high intensity to low intensity. And. You know, it's back and forth and and I just think it increased the parent fretting and stuff like this. And it it can be difficult, because that kid can make the whole family difficult, and we can't go on vacation because they don't want to go to the beach because they don't like sand. That's happened before, sure, in here, and it's the rewarding part of the job when the parent says, hey, guess we went to San Diego, and guess what? He went on the beach. I'm like, Great,

Heather Winchell: 20:26

yeah, yeah. And certainly it's, it's probably like, difficult for the kiddo themselves, right? Like, I remember early on when we came in with one of our kiddos, you said, you know, I wonder if some of this behavior stuff is because they're kind of overcompensating all day at school. It's kind of a strain on them to keep up with everybody else, because the connections aren't happening maybe the way they are for other kids. And so not only more work for the parents, but certainly kind of more burdensome for the kiddo too, right?

John Murray: 20:56

Yeah, I feel strongly about that because I think that's I always tell this story, you know, of the kid that comes in and sees us and and the kid is like, you know, an AB student that has friends and plays soccer, but when the parent picks them up carpool, they slam the door and they come in the house, and then they kick the cat, and then they hit the sibling. And then the parent says, you know, Hey, Charlie, I'm going to help you with your math school's a waste of time. You can save your money and everything this. And then the parents like, what's going on? So they call the school, and they talk to the teacher and like, Oh my God, we love Charlie. He's so well behaved, and you're wonderful parents and everything. And then the parent feels all guilty. I'm like, What am I not doing? You know that, and I can tell you, because with 98% you know, a certainty that that, that that nervous system is over stressed at school, right? Yeah, and it's just keeping it together. And they don't, you know, whoever's listening to this, like kids under the age of eight or nine, they're not being able to raise your hand and say, this is exactly where the pain is, or this is what's going on, you know, it, you know, it's complicated. There's adults that can't tell you exactly how this or that interferes with their, you know, Outlook on education and in life and in friendship and things like this. And I, you know, the older I get, I tell parents, there's a reason for every behavior, right? And the thing is, like, we don't slow down enough to investigate. Okay, so where is that coming? Well, you know, why is Heather, you know, this way, and I'm like, because Heather has a headache, but she's not raising her hand to say, I got a headache because she doesn't have the vocabulary as a four or five or six year old, maybe in Heather's parent, I have to, like, look and see and whatnot. You have to do a lot of interpreting as a parent and things like this. And then sometimes these kids sensory systems are up and down, and you don't, you know they're hot or cold. And I always give the parents the business that come in here we live. This is Colorado, and it can get cold and things like this. And kids come in and see me, and it's 20 degrees out, and they'll come in and they have shorts on and they have a jacket that's open and they don't have a hat or clothes on, and things like this, oh no, socks too, that's not popping. And the parents like, I keep on telling Heather, you know, or Joel, you got to wear your coats. And I'm like, and I tell the parents like, you never get a cold from being cold. You get cold from germs. And I'm like, and you're only coming from the parking lot into this building. I said we're not climbing Long's peak, but that's a sign that the sensory system is like under receiving. If it's 20 degrees outside and they don't look one iota of cold, and I'm thinking, let them decide if they want to wear the coat, because once they get cold, they'll get they'll grab the coat. When they grab the coke. Guess what they do? They don't leave it at school. It doesn't get lost and found, right?

Heather Winchell: 23:46

That makes sense. Would you say that there are any guiding values or principles that inform the way that you approach your work with kids and their families?

John Murray: 23:54

Yes, and it's taken a while to do this, because I've been doing this for 40 some years, but the biggest thing is it's all relational. Everything's a relation and and I'm I've given the assessments for a long time, so I feel really comfortable assessments, but I've had kids throw stuff at me during the assessment and things like this, and I'm like, it's not my job to reprimand this kid who just threw this thing at me. It's my job to figure out what in the nervous system thought that was a good idea for this kid? So to answer your question, it's all relational. And then also, because I'm not doing this, it used to be in the 80s, it was like, let me find out how many things were wrong with you. You know, because the insurance company wants to know that, because that's going to get reimbursed. And I'm a little bit more looking towards the strengths, because if there's things you're not good at, like you're never going to be a fast runner because you have parents like Michelle and I, you're going to need glasses, because you have parents like Michelle and I, you know, I can't change those things, and I'm like, so why? You know, I'm not going to make those changes, but there's all. There's a whole array of things in life, and I like partnering with parents. And I'm like, I like figuring things out. And then also, kind of, our model is to have the parents in the session. So it's kind of like an opportunity to really hear, because you can see what a kid's doing in this isn't real life in this room. This is a therapy room. This is pretty fun, but you hear parents say, you know, we're on troubles with, you know, Billy at the dinner table, or, you know what, Mary savant, you know, got up five times this week, and things like this. And parlaying with the parents like, okay, let's problem solve. Like, how to how to fix this? Because I do think it's not a choice that the nervous system of these kids is doing automatically. It's just, it just is. And if the kid isn't sick, or, you know, there's not wacky stuff going on in the home, home life, then there's a sensory piece to this, and we can figure this out sure kind of thing. So, you know, takes little time, but, you know, but definitely being present with kids and parents and and, you know, I don't know to get older, I don't feel this incessantly, like I have to get this done right this minute. Because, if anything, I think in here, I think the kids like that, like, like the kid who threw something at me, or the kid who ran around the room during the assessment. I'm like, I just don't get excited about that. I'm just saying that's what your body needed right now. And today is, you know, I can wait another day and and I used to, I wasn't that way when I first started.

Heather Winchell: 26:35

Oh, yeah, okay, yeah. I have a question later about if you could go back to when you first started, but so if you could give parents or caregivers a tool for their tool belt in helping the children around them, what would that

John Murray: 26:47

tool be? Oh, that's a good question, too. This is my favorite tool read to them. I mean, to certain degree, doesn't have anything to do with therapy, but it Yeah, I just believe fervently. And we have three sons that were read to all the time. And it's amazing. I tell parents who, when it comes up, I said, I would, I would say it's 10 IQ points, you know, you read the kids read to them every night, especially these kids that are, you know, struggling in school with reading. And I have to, they have to read this. And I'm like, new kid, and I tell the parents, like, you can read to them and give them credit for it. And I have three sons, and I wanted them to be good listeners, because, you know, it's one of the things my wife is really good at, and I'm not so good at. And when you practice the nervous system practices listening, it gets better. And then also, there's wonderful books out about all sorts of kinds of behavior stuff, and the way I feel the way I act. And, you know, with, even with our own children, who are in their 20s now, like, I would just say, hey when they were acting a certain way, instead of just making something up that, like, you know, you're kind of being a putz right now, which I wanted to say to them at one time. And I would say, hey, Riley, remember in the book Franklin, and remember when bear came to visit and he was the kid from the other place? Remember how? And he's like, yeah, I totally do. And he remembers, what I feel is, if these kids, these kids are smart, so they can immerse themselves in the book, and the book has a beginning, has a little problem in there, and it gets solved and has an ending. And I'm thinking, that's my favorite parenting tip. Instead of me lecturing about, hey, you need to be kind, you need to be nice. That's my word that I don't like, I like kind, I don't like nice. You know, you need to be paying attention. You need to stop hitting somebody. They need a story, yeah, and if the story goes with it. And students just tell the story, the behavior just deescalates by about 50% because they can relate to that, right? I mean, if they're whatever, if they're too tired or over, you know, they're hungry and stuff like this, that they're really having a temper tantrum. But the reading thing, I feel, is really, like important, and I it's incredible bonding thing as a parent. And I still have the Son, the middle son, that I read to the most. I mean, we still, he goes on dog walks. He lives in Bend argon, and we talk about books when he's walking yeggy.

Heather Winchell: 29:15

That's awesome, yeah. And you know, that makes a lot of sense, that a story, that stories would be such a great thing to draw from in coachable moments, because it's relatable, but it's externalized, and so it doesn't feel as threatening as just talking directly about their behavior to bring in an external story. Yeah, yeah.

John Murray: 29:33

And I do want to throw one other thing in there, because I thought about this too, Heather, is that the other thing is, you know, for parents, is to go on walks. You know, we're a big hiking family, you know, things like this, and I have some great stories of walking. We had these two black labs, and Michelle's out of town, and I got these three kids, and we're walking around our neighborhood and just listening to the conversations about, you know, our fallback job is going to be an OT, you know, kind of. Thing hysterical, just absolutely historical. And anytime we've been, you know, out with the kids, and we're going, like, I mean, just, it's uninterrupted time, and you find a lot I, you know, I think I wrote down my notes, like, secrets. It's not really secrets, but you just get, I know, it's a, it's a free, like, line of communication, you know, when you're hiking. So we live in a beautiful place that you can't like the weather, beautiful here all the time. And if it's cold, just put a coat on, right? You know kind of thing, or don't.

Heather Winchell: 30:31

If you if your sensory system is underdeveloped and you can't feel, Oh yeah, you said it a few minutes ago. You have been serving in this field for 40 years. How long with this particular community?

John Murray: 30:46

20 we're on 24 Wow.

Heather Winchell: 30:50

Okay, so you've been serving the community for 40 years, specifically in Colorado, for 24 of that. But just thinking about those four decades, what has most changed in your line of work in that time working with children. And what has stayed the same, I

John Murray: 31:05

think, what has changed? And I just, actually, just had this conversation with Michelle just a bit ago. I said that I've just noticed in the, say, like, the past 10 years in Fort Collins, like, it's expensive to live here, and, like, a lot of times, like, I mean, 20 years ago, one parent would come in and one parent was working and things like this. And now I just seems like a lot of times, you know, both parents are working and a lot of kids are in childcare. So we got a lot of kids their childcare, and parents are slamming us. We're like, hey, we can come from, like, three to whatever, you know, like this in the afternoon, like after school, because I'm not a big fan of, like, pulling kids out of school, however, just have a, you know, a limited time. So I think what has changed is that, well, some other things change. I think the world has gotten even faster, brighter, more, you know, it's a little more, it's a lot more chaotic. And some of this, I think, is technology, and some of this is like, Man, I gotta overcompensate because I'm spending time with these kids. So I got my kid in soccer and gymnastics and jiu jitsu and, you know, and and then they do the cheerleading, and they do, I mean, we got, we got a lot of over program kids, but it's not like, I don't like kids transition at OT and like, what are they going to do for their movements on some like, Jiu Jitsu, karate, dance, gymnastics, swimming, you know, the whole Ray, I mean, anything that's like, motor driven, which uses both sides of the body and both sides of the brain, rock climbing, parkour, you know, it's definitely these kids, like, I can't stand In a group, not t ball kind of thing, anyhow, so that, like, the environment's changed, and I think the home environment has changed, and we were so lucky, Michelle and I, because we did this job sharing thing and we raised our own kids. You know, I'm a little older and biased, but I think it makes it spending the time investing. I wrote it somewhere down here, like the formative years, the first five or six years. It's so important. And we're living proof. We went on a vacation into Europe this past summer, the five of us in a little car, and it was wonderful. It was what, you know, one of my favorite things is a family. It's going to go down this and and they, I don't know, they've sacrificed their vacation to spend time with their mom and her dad. There's a, you know, it's true blessing kind of thing anyway. But get back to your question. So the world is gotten faster and it's gotten a little more chaotic, and that's why, like, other question, like, my friends keep on saying when you're going to retire, and I'm like, I don't know. I feel like I'll need it more now, just as much now kind of thing. And though I'm getting into my mid to late 60s, I'm like, I don't know. I'm just going to keep doing this.

Heather Winchell: 33:57

Yeah, do you get the sense that I agree with you, that it feels like a lot has changed in the environment, both in the home, outside of the home, culturally, for sure, would you say that children that there's like a higher expectation on children to perform more?

John Murray: 34:16

Yeah, that's a great question. I don't know if I can articulate this very well, but I believe, and I've felt this for like 20 years, I believe the bar has been raised and lowered at the same time. So we're expecting the nervous system to read and write like write sentences and reading kindergarten, and neurophysiologically, that's not going to happen, because the nervous system has always been the nervous system, and you can, you just, it's like a tree, like, you can't tell a treat it's three years old to be five years old. It doesn't, can't do that. Needs to grow, neither roots. And the roots is like, you know, my analogy with the nervous system, the roots is like the neurons and stuff like this. You can't force a three year old tree to be a five year old tree, and then four year old tree goes kindergarten. And. Winds of like, learning, if everything's been pushed down really hard and fast, and there's a lot of casualties, there's a lot of bent there's broken limbs, and there's, you know, leaves all over the place and bent trees and, jeez, like, you know, you know, these kids, like, parent told me the other day, she said she read this thing because on an internet Yeah, like this, but by the time some kid is like, 10 years old with ADHD, he's heard 10,000 corrections in his life. Wow, you know, you know. Anyway, that was news to me, and that was just the other day. But I do feel as if you know, the expectations were really high.

Heather Winchell: 35:37

This is probably a topic that could be it's its own episode entirely, but I it would make sense to me that the prevalence of access to screens probably also messes with the nervous system to an extent. Oh, absolutely, yeah, yeah.

John Murray: 35:53

And I would anybody's listening this read the anxious generation book, and you don't have to get too far to know in it. Yeah, that that's why Australia is banning technology. And good for Australia. And even my kids, who are in their 20s, were like, Dad, we're so blessed that we didn't have this stuff, yeah, because they were just at that, you know, the iPhone seven or something with the Flip camera thing, sort of like wrecked havoc with girls self image and self esteem and things like this. So anyway, and the technology thing is really tough because it's all around and how do you set boundaries with that? But I'll tell you, anybody's listening as a parent, set the boundaries your kids will love you for that later on in life, and I do think it's going to flip. I see my own kids that are in their 20s, like they took themselves off of social media and things like this, and they're not married yet, or with kids and stuff like this, but they just say, like, this is a time sucker, right? You know, kind of thing. And I just flipped through all this stuff and I didn't get anything done. And they're, they're like, I don't know. I think they sense some urgency in life, in the sense of, like, I rather be out doing activities with friends. So yeah, that could all be a whole nother session, yeah.

Heather Winchell: 37:01

So maybe I'll have to put that one in the mix for later, maybe season three, but yeah, but that makes sense. And it's, you know, even just thinking of the nervous system and the way you were describing it, thinking it's like a tree growing and and you know how the winds and all of the things just kind of affected the growth of that tree. And, I mean, certainly, screens feels like it would be kind of a massive assault on the growth of something good and beautiful like that. So okay, earlier, you said that things have evolved for you as you've been in this profession with the experience you have today. In view, what word of wisdom would you give to yourself in your first year on the job?

John Murray: 37:39

That's a good question. So I say this to every volunteer that kind of comes in, every intern, I said, Ask more questions. It's, you know, you get the book knowledge and things like this, and then you get the real life knowledge and, and it's kind of personalized, because, you know, the whole therapy world I saw, it's, it's a relationship based so, you know, we go to a conference with somebody else, and then we come back and we're working with, you know, similar kids and stuff like this, but the methodology, or the approach of how you're going to take this information, you're like, you know, how you're going to blend it in with the kid, with the, you know, the child in this, in the situation, it's personal and individualized. So I would say, ask more questions. I would say, be more present and present in the way that, you know. I just remember just fretting through when I first was out, like I got to get this assessment done, and I got, you know, half hour, and I got to get this in, and kids throwing these blocks at me. And I'm like, You better not, you know, and you know, I think, you know, I probably would have leaned lent a little bit more on others and stuff like this, because I just think that happens like in all professions, that you know you should lean on other people. And can you ask questions? Like, 40 some years later, still ask questions.

Heather Winchell: 38:58

Was the training for your specialty, something where you had to, kind of like apprentice with an OT, or intern with an OT for a while.

John Murray: 39:04

Okay, you want to hear a crazy thing? Yes, I do. All right, the only reason I'm here is, like a God thing. So I was a very poor student. I know. I mean, I was a good student. I was financially, I didn't have and I in, and I graduated in CSU in December of 1982 and in order to do pediatrics, if you want to do pediatrics, which I absolutely wanted to do, because I was a big kid and I you had to do a third internship. So I did an internship in a mental health hospital in Denver. I did another internship in a physical disabilities hospital Spokane, Washington, and then I was out of money, you know, I didn't have money to do the third internship. So I went back to Philadelphia, and I ended up getting two friends of mine jobs at this place. There's a children's hospital. Well, in Atlantic City, New Jersey, of all places. And anyway, Greg and Patty and anyway. And I just wanted to do pediatrics, so I went down. Greg got the job. I got him to get the job down in this place. And Patty didn't take the job. So I was an aide at this Children's Hospital, because they're like, we can't hire you don't have any experience kind of thing. But I did take the classes in college and stuff like this. Anyway. So I was an aide. And then my boss, Diane, says, We can't be raid. We'll make you an assistant, you know. And they paid nothing, you know. This is back in the 80s, and anyway, and then I worked there that summer as an as an assistant, and then Greg was my buddy from Colorado. He's like, I can't stay on the East Coast, so he leaves. And they're like, Well, what are we going to do? And like, well, we can hire you. But even so, I got hired as a pediatric OT, never doing an internship, which in the history of whatever, I don't think it's probably happened more than you know. I don't know. I haven't ever met anybody else that never did that didn't do a pediatric affiliation. They got a job at peds kind of thing. So anyway, so I kind of lucked into it. Yeah, you know kind of thing.

Heather Winchell: 41:16

Thank you for sharing. I love these little like detours that we're taking. I think that they really round out this conversation. Well, okay, so just kind of wrapping up the interview questions based on your work, if you could recommend a routine or habit for any child that would help them live their fullest life. So maybe think the child, not necessarily the parent, even though a lot of time parent has to help, what would it be and why?

John Murray: 41:43

Go outside and play? It sounds really simple, but the idea of, just like the playful nature of, you know, going out on a hike or just being outside doesn't have to be so organized, and things like this. And I think I remember, I played a lot of sports as a kid and things like this. But if you ask me, like, what's the best time? So, like, was that the burgers backyard? We used to build forts back there for hours all summer. It's with hammers and nails and no supervision. And I, you know, and even with my own kids, I think that's kind of like a little bit of a lost, you know, a lost trade, I guess, because when you play, you have to be creative, and you have to, you know, you don't have much. I'm not now going to sound like I'm an old guy or members back, or like going to school uphill. My kids always remind me, but we didn't have a lot of stuff. You know, when I was growing up, we didn't have we had a small house, and we had five kids, and you just made do the cardboard. I mean, you were still making dough, and there was woods behind our house, and we could climb the fence, and we'd go into woods, and we would be there for hours being creative. And I do think, you know, if there's one thing for kids, it would be like, hey, what can you do when you're bored? What can you you know? And what can you by yourself? You don't need me the dad, you know. And I know as a parent, I was too overly involved in my kids. You look a little bored. Let's, let's play these games and stuff like this. But they didn't know how to play ring out, and they didn't know how to play capture the flag, and they didn't have, you know. So, yeah, I'm 30 years old or 40 years old running around the cul de sac with these, you know, the other kids in the neighborhood, because it was a little disappointing when I moved here, because I'm like, Oh my gosh, we moved this neighborhood. There's 26 kids live in this neighborhood in between the ages of toddler to, you know, to 12, and they can't play. They're not playing together in the cul de sac. Like, okay, so I got to get a kickball, and I'll show you how to do the kickball, and I'll show you how to share and try not to put throw the ball at the kid's head. He was, like, four and five years old, silly things like that. Heather, it was just kind of crazy. But I go to get outside, get outside, get away from the screens. And, you know, be bored like that. And for kids like to read? Yeah, you know, you can go amazing places without leaving anywhere by reading. And I find, you know to boast. I guess it is. You're not supposed to brag about your kids. But boasting about my kids, my kids are pretty well read, because they were read to and things like this. And they just see the world a lot different, you know, a lot differently. And they, you know, I don't know, they're out playing around. One just got back from the Olympics, you know, they went to the Olympics. Yes, how fun, yeah, with a buddy. And he did a whole, he never takes pictures. But I said, I asked Aiden. I said, Aiden, buddy, you got to take pictures because I'm not going to get to the Olympics, you know, like this. And he did his little slide show for Michelle and I last night. And he goes, I got it down. I took and he never used to take pictures. And he got it down to like I took 800 pictures, mom and dad, he says, but I got it down on the plane ride, on the 11 hour ride back to Seattle. I got it down to 350 so he raced through the pictures last night. And. Was just so enjoy, enjoyable to see how he just like, you know, and his, he had a friend, exchange student that lived in Milan and, you know, his whole family experience, and he's not afraid of doing stuff. And he missed planes, and he, you know, missed trains and stuff like this. And he paid much money to go to a soccer game. And I was like, Wow, it sounds so exciting. You know that you had to problem solve, and you had to do these things, and you didn't need your mother or your father to do it, and it might have got a lot more money than you would have thought, but good for you, you know, like this and and the thing about it is, like talking to him about it, and he's like, he's so he's so jet lagged last night, and he was so joyful about the whole thing. I was like, wow, you know. And I did text him, because that's technology in the morning. I said that was, like, the best photo shoot that I've ever seen. It was pretty funny. But anyway, Doctor question, the routine is the, you know, is the break the routine of like, having to go to soccer and having to go here, and having go there, and, you know, I don't know, just doing and as as a parent, just doing something that you you know, like they were going to make, we're all going to make dinner tonight, or, you know, we're all going to go buy a pizza and go to some park or something like this. We're all going to, you know, do something, you know, do something out of the routine, like the adult routine. That makes sense? Yeah, it does.

Heather Winchell: 46:27

That's great. Like as, yeah, a playfulness, yeah, inviting some playfulness into the family rhythm, that's really good. Now we're going to move into just some fun get to know you questions. Sure, this one's not on there, but I'm curious, because you said your kids were well read. What's your favorite book? Or do you have a favorite book

John Murray: 46:44

for that to read to them? Or just either my favorite book reading them because, because I bought this book for all these other people, because I was youngest in the family and had these nieces and nephews and everything, Oh, the places you will go and and then I bought it a dozen times more. And then one day, then I had my own kids, and then I read it, and I'm like, Oh my gosh, there's a whole line in there about The Waiting Place. It's not a whole line, it's two, two full pages that I used to have it memorized, because that's the thing that would rise oldest. And he would say, Dad, how much longer? And I'm like, myrrh. I call everybody myrrh, myrrh. I said, oh, never gonna be the waiting place where we're waiting for the trees, the trees to blow, or the grass to grow, or the thing. And I would do, and he's like, Stop it already. Because I would, I would read that, and I just it goes back to what was saying earlier about using books to describe this thing. And so that was, I have a lot of favorites, old turtle. I like to ask my kids over, you know, the holidays, when they're back, and things like this. And we'll have a beverage or two, and I'll say, hey, remind me what you remember, because we spent a lot of time reading books. Either is all memorized and and they're like, ah, we gotta remember. That's like this. And then also the door opens, one of them says, you know, well, Hank the cow dog. And then as soon as Hank the cow dog comes out, like, remember this episode. And it just like, it's a it's so fun. It's like, Memory Lane through the books. So like, every kid book that I read, I found to be, I didn't find, like, one enjoyable book. And I'm thinking, to like my current book, and and, oh my gosh. And it said on me, it's, and I, I know who the author is, Timothy, this, and it's, it's something about Ireland. It's, oh, the immortal Irishman, the immortal, immortal Irishman. And, and I read that, I read that and as meaning, because then I met our son in Ireland, and we toured around Ireland for my one of my birthdays. I think it was my 50th or 60th birthday, or something like this. And anyway. And then my other son has read all the Irish books that I read, Trinity and things like this and what some of the other Irish books, anyway. And he read that too, and we had this immortal Irishman conversation about Thomas Meeker and stuff like this. It's, it's a wonderful, it's a wonderful book that makes your like life theme, like not living it the same way. I'll have to check it out. Yes, it's a, it's a, it's a great read. If you have a little bit of Irish,

Heather Winchell: 49:18

I do. I have a little Irish in me. Okay? Irish, French, Cherokee, all kinds of stuff.

John Murray: 49:23

That's great. That's that. And I know when this conversation is over, like 10 books that I read to the kids will pop into my pop in my head, but I don't regret any of the time, and I do want to say this so I stopped reading to like we I was reading to Logan, who's our middle son. I was reading him. He was like, 12 years old. I was still reading. We were reading into the wild. And, you know, just all these books that I didn't grow up, reading a lot of books. So I was like, I was made overcompensating with this. And then the one day he says, like dad, he goes, and I think in. Thin Air or something. We're reading stuff like this. And he goes, Dad, I'm just like, kind of busy. And it's just like, I don't, I don't think I'd handle it. And I'm like, he was like, well, he could have been close to 13. And I was like, okay, look, I totally get it. And I walked away. And I still this day, I tell parents, like, people that, like, I've had some sad moments. I've like, I lost both parents, lost a sister as a brother in law. You know, I've lost dogs that I absolutely loved and stuff like this. But losing the time that ranks up there with the whole, you know, like that was, but it's also, it's kids, like 12 or 13. And the thing is, like this, the other thing about that, I truly, truly believe. Like when parents come in, kind of like you and Joel, they come in and they delve in, they come to Mary therapy, and they pour into their kids like, you can't see it, maybe today and stuff like this, but you can see it. I will tell you, it'll, it's gonna, you'll see it 1015, years from now, yeah. And you're like, Did that really happen? Because it doesn't seem like that. And I was like, Yeah, it really did. Because, like, my relationship with all three sons, I think, is pretty powerful as far as I'm concerned. But I'm like, that relationship with Logan and I about the whole book thing. Yeah, we're trading, but, you know, we're trading books and stuff like this as a 66 year old and as a 28 year old, I love that's pretty cool.

Heather Winchell: 51:25

That's really cool. Yeah, that's really cool. Is there another book that comes to mind that you would encourage all parents to read as it relates to parenting kiddos that might need ot,

John Murray: 51:37

yes, it's called brain, body parenting, written by by Mona della hook.

Heather Winchell: 51:45

Mona della hook, could you read the subtitle? Because I think that's intriguing.

John Murray: 51:49

Oh, yeah, brain, body parenting, how to stop managing behavior and start raising joyful, resilient kids. That's great. Yeah, it's great book. She gets the whole idea about how behavior and, you know, and the sensory systems are the neurological system, like they're, they're symbiotic and kind of thing. And she does a really good job of, I think, explaining to parents, because everybody's thinking about, like, like, a lot of sensory things just bottom up, and a lot of the behavior things is top down. I'm oversimplifying it, but Right, that's a little bit what that's all about.

Heather Winchell: 52:23

Yeah, and I wonder so something that I wanted to find a way to mention in the interview, because it was so helpful for us, and maybe it applies here, is that I remember early on, an aha moment for us. Was one of our kiddos was always kind of like bothering his brothers, like touching them and bothering them, or whatever. And you recommended that we get him. It was kind of like a hug chair. It's like this, it's, it's like this chair that basically touches him, like when he's in it. It's kind of like hugging his body all around. Because you said that, really, it was just him looking for input, right? Yeah. And so would you say that that's one of the things that she does that fit with that theory, yes, yeah, yeah, and that's been so helpful for us. So, yeah, very cool. Okay, well, now I'll stick to the script. Okay, I'm asking you all kinds of off the cuff questions, but that's okay. What is a Murray family tradition that you hope to pass along to future generations?

John Murray: 53:17

So the kids, though, they weren't born in Philadelphia, they're all Philadelphia Eagles fans. And five years ago, four years ago, the Eagles played the the Denver Broncos. So we bought tickets, and then since then, we go to an Eagles game with the whole the five of us, and we've been to Dallas, and it's very interesting, Dallas fan. I mean, being in Dallas as a not Dallas fan, and my sons tell me, Dad, don't say anything when they say stuff back, please, please, don't say anything. And it's pretty you know, we got all our Eagles gear on and stuff like this, and we've been to Dallas, we've been to Seattle, and we're already planning the trip for next year. Cool, you know, kind of thing somewhere on the West Coast, because two of the kids live on the West Coast, kind of thing. So, I mean, that's one of our things. And it's and, and even Michelle is, like, super hyped into this, you know, this whole Eagles thing and stuff like this and it, I mean, that's one of the things that, you know, till the day I done, or whatever, till the day I die, or something like this, we'll still be going the Eagles games. That's great kind of thing.

Heather Winchell: 54:22

Yeah, that's great. And if memory serves me, well, I think the Eagles generally do pretty well, right?

John Murray: 54:27

Well, yes, and then we don't talk about when they don't Okay, yeah, we just want to talk about that.

Heather Winchell: 54:33

Okay, next fun question for you, if you were invited to give a TED talk, what would you speak to and why

John Murray: 54:41

I want to be positive. However, I got to be honest and like people. And one of the things is, like, you know, I said this a long time ago. I, you know, when I got my own business, I said, you know, it's all about early intervention. It's about serving the nervous system early and figuring stuff out before. It's like, it's too late, you know, it's never too late. But, you know. Kind of thing, and that, you know, to to, like, kind of reiterate, and I'm sure they did this on TED Talk, like, the formative years, the first five years, and stuff like this, about how that's important. And then my new thing, my new bend, it's not new, but it's just, you know, kind of came up. Is that like, hey for parents to realize, and adults to realize, hey, whatever they see, whatever they hear, whatever they taste, whatever they touch, whatever they smell, whatever they experience, that gets registered for life. You know, it's not. You can't just play it off. And I just think, you know, they're young brains. They don't need to be exposed to all this garbage and things like this, and for people to realize that, like, Yeah, I'm not gonna play video games, violent video games, like kid and, you know, or what, who thought that an R rated movie was good idea for a kid who's, you know, or, you know, a scary movie for a kid who's, like, under the age of seven, you know, or eight, I'm like, you're just gonna wake up. That kid's gonna have a nightmare, you know, kind of thing for a long time. And I'm like, that's on you, mom or dad, you know, for doing that. So that would be my reality check. And then my other thing is, like, kids are so grateful, you know, like kids and kids that I see in here are so much fun, and, you know, they, you know, even the ornery ones, I mean, you're being ornery, just to show me that something's not working. And for some reason you think that I can figure that help you figure this out. And sometimes I can, and sometimes you're making my job really hard, which is actually good, because it makes me want to come back figure this out. Yeah, we can figure this out. Yeah, kind of thing. So I would do a TED talk on like, Hey, listen, people like treat kids nice. The world will be a better place, but we got to start. We got to start treating kids nice and treat them like kids and not bloody adults. They're not adults. Yeah, they're kids. Let them be kids.

Heather Winchell: 56:54

Yeah. All right. You have been given an all inclusive weekend away. Sweet. Where are you going and who are you taking with you?

John Murray: 57:02

Okay, I am taking my wife and my three sons, because they're pretty fun, and a news question is coming so and we're going to Ireland, and we're going to hike and listen to music all over all over Ireland. We're going to go see some castles and see some things, because how fun, because we haven't. I've been there with one of the sons, and I just think it would be just, I don't know, you get older. And also I have this yearning for, like, where did it come from? You know? And I did do the, well, the genetic testing a few years ago, just for fun, and because I thought I really wanted to be Scottish, because they were like, explorers, and they were like, you know, going around conquering stuff and and I wanted to be Scottish. I wanted to say somebody in my family was Scottish. And I'm like, Okay, no, the tread that comes back, I'm 95 97% Irish, 2% Scottish, and 1% Welsh. You've got a little Scottish, a little Scottish here. And I found out. I didn't go too deep in this, but I found out, basically, my people for a lot of years were in northern, north central Ireland. They just kind of ran around in circles because they were Catholics. They staked at the same church, or something like this. It was the funniest thing. I'm like, I am so whatever, we just stayed in the same neighborhood and and I, and when I think about that, like I was born in Philadelphia, went to school in Colorado, I took a job in Atlantic City, then I moved to Washington, then I moved to Tacoma, Washington, and then I moved, you know, to Fort Collins, Colorado. So I'm like, Oh, well, maybe that's the Scotch part of me like getting out of town. And meanwhile, my other the rest of my family is still in the Philadelphia greater circle, with the exception of

Heather Winchell: 58:49

my brother, yeah, yeah. Well, at least you've got a place to stay and get a good Philly Cheesesteak.

John Murray: 58:53

Oh, yeah, I do. Yeah. That's awesome.

Heather Winchell: 58:57

All right, John, well, now I would like to invite you to give your own shout out. Who would you want to tell thanks for doing that, and why?

John Murray: 59:04

Okay, all right, there's a psychologist here, Dr Brian Messinger, and he's been here. He's been here like since the youth clinic. And Brian and I are roughly the same age. Actually, I'm your older Brian. He grew up in Virginia, went to school in Delaware, and things like this, and I call him like my unsung hero, because he's worked with kids and has all his life. He is probably one of the most caring, empathetic men that I've ever met, and totally loves. He cares about kids and he cares about their parents. I ask him a lot of questions, and he's smart and he's quick with it, and he's funny, and he always makes the comedy. He goes, Murray. He goes, You got the better job. And I'm like, How's that, Brian? He goes, like, your people like coming to you, you know, and they have fun and they're laughing. My people, like a lot of my people, that's not always true, but he said they have to come to me because, you know, because they've got problems, you know, behavior problems, or whatever. Really, but he's a delight. And I just don't think that you know a child psychologist like who talks about science psychologists all the time, you know, yeah, not many people, because it's a parent that's kicking in, not truly always there, but it's sometimes, it's like, yeah, it's a lot of job than my job for good, for goodness sakes, for sure kind of thing.

Heather Winchell: 1:00:22

That's why I love this question, because the reality is, our community is full of people like Brian that are doing a great job, like you, that are doing a great job, and really like you, showing up, doing what you do matters for the community, for the whole community, right? And so it's just it's great to have that called out. So thank you for shouting out to Brian. Okay, you're welcome. Thanks for having me. Yeah, well, I've got one more thing, okay, and then, and then I know you have an appointment to get to, but Okay, the last thing is, I write a haiku for all of my guests as a way to say thank you. It's just, it just distills the reason I wanted to say thank you. So here's my Haiku for you. Okay, okay, empowering kids in strength of body and mind. Thanks for doing that.

John Murray: 1:01:07

Oh, well, thank you very much. Heather, that's very sweet. I gotta get a copy of that. Oh, you'll get a copy. Don't worry, sweet. Thank you so very much. You know, thank you for

Unknown: 1:01:15

having me. You're welcome. You announcer,

Heather Winchell: 1:01:28

thanks for doing that. Is presented to you by the ebiary, a place for beholding and becoming and thank you for joining us for today's episode. Before you go, I have a couple of invitations. If you found it meaningful, could I invite you to take two minutes to rate and review the show? I also invite you to help me create an upcoming episode of thanks for doing that by nominating someone or suggesting a topic, let's link arms to call out the good and the beautiful that we see around us, because I really believe that finding delight in our divided and difficult world could make all the difference in.