THANKS for doing that

Every Moment, Holy: Douglas McKelvey on Creating for the Common Good

• Heather Winchell • Season 2 • Episode 30

Share episode

In this craft-rich conversation, writer and lyricist Douglas McKelvey shares the winding path that led to Every Moment Holy, why Volume Two (grief, death, and hope) was formed in community, and how he thinks about vocation through a Kingdom economy—serving real people first. He previews his next book: a young-adult-focused collection (late HS through mid-20s) with longtime illustrator Ned Bustard. We also talk about the Art House in the ‘90s, Rabbit Room, and what it means to “mourn with those who mourn” while keeping hold of joy. Plus a fun closer: Doug invents a Chesterton-inspired coffee drink (“The Father Brown”).

You’ll hear about:

  • The loaves-and-fishes posture in what you bring
  • How community shapes our lives
  • Why joy and sorrow don’t cancel each other out
  • A forthcoming EMH book crafted for young adults entering adulthood
  • Serving your community vs. chasing what sells

Mentioned in this episode:

Catch more of the story @thanks.for.doing.that.podcast!

 Heather Winchell: Hey, there you are listening to thanks for doing that, a podcast celebrating people and ideas that make this world a better place. I am Heather Winchell, your host and chief enthusiast, and I'm on a mission to bring you conversations that encourage, inspire and delight. So stay tuned for another episode where we explore the things we do, the reasons we do them, and why it matters.

Today I am joined by writer and lyricist Douglas McKelvy. And I first came across Doug's work when I was gifted a copy of the first volume of Every Moment Holy for Christmas in 2018. And for those that may not know every moment, holy is a book of liturgical prayers with the stated purpose to encourage readers in practicing mindfulness of the constant presence of God, and draw them toward greater recognition of the eternal echoes resounding in every moment of our lives.

And I have to say that this has certainly been true of my experience, and it is such an unexpected gift to be able to thank Doug personally for the many ways that his words have been used in my own formation as well as those of my family. Doug, thanks for joining me today. And let's start with a bit about you and what life looks like for you right now.

[00:01:33] Douglas McKelvey: Hmm. Well, first, thank you for, for inviting me to be a part of this conversation. Um, uh, right now is kind of a. A big, uh, hinge point. Hmm. Because I've been working on a project for the last two years. I just turned in the last of the manuscript last Saturday. And as soon as we're done with this conversation, I'm, I'm heading down to Georgia, uh, where the, the artist that I've been working with on this, who's also going to do the layout for the book is living.

And we will spend the next five days doing the layout and, um, then I'll be done with that. And all of the, the mini projects that I wanted to get to over the last year that I had to keep putting off, I'll be able to, to turn my attention to those, which among other things include three very different sorts of books from what I've been working on the last two years.

So, yeah. So I'm excited to turn that corner and, and move on to a. Some new projects. 

[00:02:47] Heather Winchell: Wow. You said two years? Two years in process? Yeah. Yeah, 

[00:02:52] Douglas McKelvey: yeah. I did not think it would take anything close to that, but I guess I should have learned my lesson by now because the, the first volume of every moment Holy took a year.

Um, the second one I assumed would take a year, and it took two years. Yeah. Um, and yeah, this, this latest book, which will be the fourth book in the every MoMA Holy Series, ended up taking two years, which I, I did not anticipate, but yeah. Yeah. 

[00:03:22] Heather Winchell: I know that in the third book there were other contributors.

Will the fourth book have that same style, or will it return to more of your own, just your own work? 

[00:03:30] Douglas McKelvey: Mostly it's my own work. 

[00:03:31] Heather Winchell: Okay. 

[00:03:32] Douglas McKelvey: Because it is a more topically focused kind of book in the way that volume two was. Okay. Um, you know, I don't assume that all your listeners are familiar with the book, so I can give a, a brief overview.

Volume one is, um, like this cross section of different moments of, of life. Some, some fairly significant others, more daily kinds of things, like a liturgy for changing diapers or a liturgy for, um, a birthday or for the first Hearth fire of the season. Um, book two was prayers specifically for seasons of, uh, death, grief, and hope.

Um, so when you're mourning the, the loss of someone you love or. When, when a person is faced with a, a, a prognosis of only having six months to live, um, you know, prayers just for that, that whole season of life, of walking through the valley of the shadow. Then volume three was like volume one, kind of this shotgun pattern approach of, of just prayers for many different parts of life.

But I invited close to 60 other authors to contribute. Mm-hmm. Prayers to that. Um, and I think I might have written 12 or 15 as well, and then I served as the editor on that project. Um, but this fourth book is going to be aimed at young people, um, kind of from that late high school through maybe mid to late twenties.

Just that, that whole time of life of stepping into adulthood, into independence, making those significant decisions that happen in that time of life about vocation and, you know, potentially marriage or, or, um, living as a single person and some of the challenges that come about as a result of that. So this fourth book will not actually be called Volume four.

Um, it's going to be a different, uh, it's gonna be a smaller trim size. Um, the, the layout of the book is gonna look somewhat different inside, but it will have as much content as the. In terms of the number of prayers and the amount of text, as you know, it will probably land somewhere between volume one and volume two in terms of the length of them, so, 

[00:06:12] Heather Winchell: okay.

Very cool. That, I mean, that sounds needed and I have, you know, I have four boys, not quite to that place of life, but it will be really exciting to know there will be something like that, that I can send them off with. Mm-hmm. Will you have the same illustrator or will you be Yes. Okay. Yeah, 

[00:06:28] Douglas McKelvey: Ned Buster, who has been with me, um, you know, partnering on these projects, providing the just amazing artwork that, you know, so many of his pieces of art in these books function as.

Sermons as visual sermons in their own right. And I had told him from the beginning, I don't want you to illustrate what I've written. I want you to create, you know, a piece of art, you know, that communicates these same things. Mm-hmm. But, but on its own that someone could pray through, you know, could, could kind of meditate on, on the art in a, in a prayerful way and, and kind of pray through, you know, whatever it is that's on their heart in relation to that.

But letting the various images, his, his artwork tends to be very symbol rich. Drawing from the, the long tradition of, of art in the church and the various symbols, even from early on in the early church that you know, that the, the church has developed this, this symbolic language that. That we've largely lost touch with mm-hmm.

In most of our, um, expressions of Christianity in the West nowadays. But he's, you know, he's mining those rich veins Yeah. Of tradition that the body of Christ had developed over the last couple thousand years. And, um, yeah. So it just, you know, is a, is a wonderful, um, compliment to the, the prayers to the text.

Um, but yes, he is, he is working on this project as well. 

[00:08:09] Heather Winchell: I, I really love his work. And I think, like you said, I think he does incorporate many things that maybe you even miss at first glance because you're not as familiar with them. But then as you become for more familiar with his piece, it's kind of like unfolding revelation or kind of unfolding beauty in that way.

Yeah. As you begin to understand the deeper. The things that he's put in there may, I wouldn't say Easter eggs, but, you know, just things that, well, yeah. I mean you might, you can say 

[00:08:34] Douglas McKelvey: Easter eggs. Yeah. I think, I mean, it, it kind of is that way that he, he doesn't tend to waste any of the potential space Yeah.

In the image he's gonna, all of the elements are intentional and have symbolic meaning. 

[00:08:48] Heather Winchell: Yeah. Yeah. And it can be just really sweet to return back again and be like, oh, that's new, or, I didn't notice that before. Yeah. Yeah. Cool. Very cool. So, I would love to hear a bit about your journey to creating with words.

What has it looked like for you to come to this point? 

[00:09:05] Douglas McKelvey: As a, a kid, even before I could read, I loved stories, was always bugging my parents for stories and my parents did quite a bit of reading to my sister and I, which I, I really appreciate, uh, that investment that they, that they made. Um, just of time.

And when I learned to read at six years old, I was just immediately a voracious reader. I couldn't get enough of stories. Um, and that, that hunger for story has continued throughout my life, but I also was very sensitive to the rhythm and feel of, of language. Mm. Um, even as a, as a 6-year-old, I loved, uh, the, the abuse of the English language when, you know, to comic effect.

Mm-hmm. Just, you know, I mean, uh, puns and, you know, yeah. Those, those sorts of things. But also just the, the cadence of words and the way different words feel in, you know, even physically feel in your mouth as you say them and the way they sound. And so, um. You know, I suppose there was always this, uh, this love that I had of language that, that was kind of leading me towards, um, dabbling in poetry and, um, the years that I spent, uh, 12 years or so where, um, writing lyrics for songs was my primary vocation.

Um, and there was a, I, I think there was a certain point when I was in my early twenties, maybe 23, you know, just shortly after college, where I did have this sort of epiphany experience. Where I just suddenly realized, I mean, it felt, it felt like a revelation just sort of dropped on me. But, um, I just knew I was gonna be a writer and I didn't know how to get from point A to point B or what that would mean, or what it would look like, but it was just this, this thing that was just sort of suddenly there.

And I was like, okay, 

[00:11:44] Heather Winchell: yeah, I 

[00:11:45] Douglas McKelvey: guess I'm gonna be a writer. Um, now the path from there to where I am now was such a meandering path, uh, fraught with moments that seemed like failure and dead ends and doubts and questioning of, you know, what, what am I doing here? Why is, why is this not working? Um, and. It was not a, it was not a path I ever could have mapped out.

Mm. You know, in, in looking back with hindsight, now I can see how the different steps along the way serve to prepare me to be able to write Hmm. The prayers for the every moment holy project in a way that I never could have anticipated or prepared myself. Right. Or tried to plan something out. And of course that, I mean, that was not a project that came about because it was something I had had in mind for a long time as, oh, I want to do something like this.

Right. That project came about because I was working on a science fiction novel, had been struggling for a couple years, uh, to make progress on it, and, and one morning I just got really frustrated 'cause I had gone a few weeks without. Being very disciplined. Mm-hmm. Right. I would sit down with the best of intentions every morning to work on this novel and next thing you know, lunchtime would roll around.

And I had read some interesting articles and answered a lot of emails, Uhhuh and, but had never actually opened the document. So I thought, I need a, I need some kind of a prayer that I could pray when I sit down that would focus me for, you know, and that would, that would just reorient me to the bigger story and to my place in it, to my relationship to God, to my stewardship of whatever talents I have to my hope to serve a community of people by what I would create today by faithfully.

You know, applying myself to this and just on a whim, I thought, oh, I'll write it in a liturgical format. Mm-hmm. Um, just to kind of give, give myself some parameters and a, you know, a bit of a challenge with it. So I spent, um, maybe four hours crafting a prayer or a liturgy for fiction writers. Hmm. And, and I, I thought, ah, this is kind of cool.

Mm-hmm. Um, but really thought, you know, it's, it's, this is something for me, but I was doing a conference session with Andrew Peterson and a, a writer from Northern Ireland, Heidi Johnston, that was about story. So I sent this prayer to liturgy for fiction writers to Andrew Peterson and, and said, Hey, would this be an interesting way for us to maybe close that session?

Right. Um, to have everyone pray this. And, and he responded and said, yeah, um, we should do that. But, but man, I wish I also had a, a liturgy for beekeeping. Mm-hmm. And, and he listed a couple other things, and that was when the light bulb just came on. And I immediately realized, oh yeah, this isn't just this sort of novelty thing.

There's actually something in this model that could really serve the body of Christ in a lot of different ways. Mm-hmm. And so then I just started typing furiously. As the idea expanded, um, basically I was creating the pitch document mm-hmm. For this book, for what it would be, even down to the style I wanted the artwork to be, which is, I didn't know Ned at the time.

Mm-hmm. Didn't know who he was, but, um, his style of artwork is exactly Wow. Vision you had. Yeah. I, I pulled some like old woodcut prints from, you know, church art from hundreds of years ago mm-hmm. And put those in the, in the pitch document and, and you know, I was like, this is, this is what the art needs to look like.

[00:16:11] Heather Winchell: So cool. 

[00:16:12] Douglas McKelvey: So yeah. So that's, you know, that's how, and within the space of a half hour. The idea for what every moment Holy could be title and everything was, was set there. Hmm. And I don't think anything significantly changed from kind of that Right. First half hour of, of this just vision of, oh, this, yeah, this could be a thing.

Um, yeah. So, and that, that's not typical, you know, that's not right. Common in my experience of I've spent my adult life brainstorming and doing creative projects and it's, it's not, it's almost never like that. Yeah. But this was, yeah. 

[00:16:55] Heather Winchell: Yeah. But that sounds really exciting. Like I can just imagine the, the excitement that you would've like embodied in that just.

With that, those ideas flowing in such vision, such clear vision, even down to the artwork. That's amazing. 

[00:17:07] Douglas McKelvey: Yeah. Yeah. 

[00:17:07] Heather Winchell: Very cool. Well, so something I wanted to ask you. I recently picked up the book, why Everything That Doesn't Matter Matters so much by Charlie Peacock and Andy Ashworth. Um, and for anyone listening that doesn't know, Charlie and Andy founded the Art House in Nashville, uh, I don't remember the year, but 

[00:17:25] Douglas McKelvey: in 

[00:17:26] Heather Winchell: 91.

In 91, yeah. And that, that was a community that you were part of. And I would love to hear about that experience and maybe more in general, what role community has played in shaping your art. 

[00:17:38] Douglas McKelvey: Mm, yes. So moving to Nashville in 1991 at the invitation of Charlie and Andy to be a part of helping to launch the the art house was a, was a huge pivot point.

In my life. Before that, I wasn't quite sure what I was gonna do. I graduated college. It had been, um, three years. I guess since then, I kind of loosely had the idea that, okay, I think I'm gonna go to graduate school. So I was starting to put together a, a creative writing portfolio. 'cause I thought I would try to get into a creative writing master's program somewhere.

Um, and then out of the blue I got this invitation and Charlie didn't really know me and my, my college roommate, Nick Bere, who was kind of tentatively planning to go to film school, to graduate school, to study film. At that point we had been huge Charlie Peacock fans of his music. And so when he would play in Dallas, we would make the five hour drive there.

And at, for whatever reason, he was playing in Dallas multiple times a year. At that point. So we would drive down there and we would always hang around until the line at the, you know, at his signing table was, was depleted. And then we would spend some time talking to him. 'cause we were just, you know, fan boys guess.

Mm-hmm. So that's the only place he knew us from. Huh? It was just, you know, those, those 15, 20 minute talks at the end of concerts over the, the period of a couple years, you know, and I think it was, I think it was a divine kind of thing. Mm-hmm. That for, for some reason he keyed in on us and he was like, I think those guys, you know Yeah.

Might be, might be ones to play a role in helping launch this. So, um, so at his invitation, we both moved. To Nashville in 91 and, um, started volunteering, you know, spent lots of hours every week working on, on stuff for the art house as it was getting launched. And that was, uh, in terms of, of the role that community has played, um, that art house community was so foundational for me, just in terms of being kind of a triage center, you know, my path through churches growing up, there was a lot of, of weirdness, for lack of a, a better word.

And so while I was in college, I had, I've come to the place of recognizing, oh, there's a whole lot that I've believed that's not accurate. Mm-hmm. That's, but um, I wasn't in a place where the. Where I could really discern what is true, you know? Um, and I wasn't in a place where there was good teaching mm-hmm.

Happening. It was all pretty out there, so I just kind of checked out. Mm-hmm. I mean, the, there was a point my senior year where I just prayed, God, I, I still believe in you. I believe Jesus is your son. I don't know what's true beyond that, and I don't know how to sort through any of this. So if it's okay with you, I'm just gonna check out till I'm out of this place, and then maybe we can mm-hmm.

Regroup. Mm-hmm. Um, and, and that was pretty much what happened. Um, but there were a couple years after that of just kind of drifting and trying to start to figure out things. But it was really, when I, I. Landed in the art house community that for the first time the gospel was being taught in a way that made sense.

Mm-hmm. And that that intersected both heart and intellect and that, um, was able to speak to making sense of life and the different parts and the, um, and how all of life is to be lived as one act of worship. That all the different parts of our lives are, are part of that, that there's not these divides of, of different parts of life.

And just in so many ways, I mean, for the first time I was being, um, taught scripture in a way that made sense and that I didn't mm-hmm. Feel like I had to be on my guard all the time. Wondering, well, that sounds weird. Does that, you know, so, so that was very, very important in. In just the, the formational aspects, spiritually, theologically, um, and in being integrated into a community that was, uh, very focused on, um, creating redemptive artifacts.

[00:22:52] Heather Winchell: Hmm. Yeah. 

[00:22:53] Douglas McKelvey: Um, that, that could then be gifted to the church and, and to the culture. So those threads continued for, for, you know, the next couple decades. Um, the art house went through changes and, you know, after a few years was no longer a place where there were weekly meetings and that sort of thing, but the legacy of the art house and the work that Charlie and Andy continued to do with, with writing books and, and various other things they were doing, continued to have a very shaping influence on Hmm.

On communities that I was a part of. And the rabbit room, um, that Andrew Peterson and his brother Pete started, um, and Rabbit Room Press, which has grown out of, out of the Rabbit room and Rabbit Room press publishes the every MoMA Holy books now. Um, they very, very much recognize that they are standing on the shoulders mm-hmm.

Of Charlie and Andy and what they created with the, with the art house, um, the Rabbit Room community, which I have, I don't know if it's been 15 years since I was kind of introduced and begun to be integrated into that. Maybe it's somewhere 13 or or 15 years, something like that. That was at a point where so many of the things that I had done, the, the songwriting that I had.

You know, spent more than a decade doing and thought that was gonna be my career path and my retirement would be, you know, my copyrights catalog, the MP three thing came along. Mm. And within the space of two years, because people, you know, quit buying the music they were acquiring, um, my income stream dropped to 25% of what it had been.

Wow. And that was when I had three young daughters and, you know, we were, um, 

[00:25:01] Heather Winchell: in the thick of it. 

[00:25:01] Douglas McKelvey: Yeah. We were in the thick of it. Expenses were increasing. And at that point, I just realized, I don't think the industry is gonna get ahead of this. I think I have to start looking at something else to do.

Mm-hmm. Because, you know, this is, I can't, I can't pay the bills anymore with this. Um, so, you know, I, I took meandering paths. I, I went, um, out to LA. Took screenwriting classes. Oh, fun. Got a little bit of work here and there. Um, I, I won a, uh, screenplay contest, which the prize was supposed to be, that there was gonna be budget to make this, mine was a 30 minute film.

And, um, so it was like, oh, the, you know, yeah, this is thinking God is opening this door because, you know, this is going to be the business card that I'll be able to get screenplay writing work off of. Um, and then that, that ended up falling through. There was just, um, I don't know all the reasons there, there was just, the executive producer and I were never quite on the same page as the two producers.

Mm-hmm. And the, the resulting tension just eventually the project fell apart. So then I, you know, I started doing video and film work on my own. Um, you know, bought some, bought some equipment and just was doing music videos and, you know, marketing kind of videos and stuff in town. And then that, uh, industry ebbs and flows with the economy overall.

Yeah. Because as the economy shrinks, that's a really easy place for businesses to cut to say, well, we're not gonna spend the $10,000 on having that video made that we were gonna Sure. You know, outsource to someone. Um, so ultimately I found myself approaching 50 years old, um, with two daughters in college.

Um, one about to start college pretty soon. Um, two weddings coming up that I had to pay for. Oh. Um, and I'm. Working as the sexton for my church, which for people who aren't in the Anglican world, that doesn't mean a priest as people have assumed. Um, it's basically like a, a janitor, a a, uh, facilities manager.

Okay. You know, so I was just doing the setup and tear down for my, for my church every week. I was driving ferrying drunk people around Nashville as an Uber and Lyft driver till two in the morning. Oh, wow. Um, just trying to make bill paying money mm-hmm. Because everything had dried up. Hmm. And so for me it was really this season of, uh, am is this kind of it, is this what the rest of my life is gonna be like?

Yeah. I mean, all these things that seemed so promising at different points and that, you know, looked like good career paths. Mm-hmm. Then just dried up and went away and, um. So it was a, it was a dark time for me, a lot of, a lot of doubt, a lot of sense of myself as a failure in, in all these things I had tried.

Um, but, uh, one bright spot was the rabbit room community and just being a part of that, and I, there was a certain point where I really had to come to the place of, of, of saying, okay, what if this is what the rest of my life is? Like if I'm just hustling to try to make ends meet, have any of God's promises failed?

Is he any less faithful? Do I have a right to have things work out the way I would want? Mm-hmm. And I had to, had to come to that place of saying. No, none of God's promises have failed. All of, I mean, my, my future is eternally secure. Mm-hmm. My hopes are, are not lessened by this, my hopes of the new creation, of the restoration of all things, of the healing of all hurts, of, of having a seat at the table, at the wedding supper of the lamb.

Mm-hmm. You know, that's where this is going. These are just details. Mm-hmm. And I might not like the details, but it's okay. Mm-hmm. So then the next question was, okay, if none of the creative projects that I feel passionate about doing ever meet with the kind of success that would allow me just to do those things.

Right. Right. What does it mean to be a faithful steward of those things? Am I willing to invest the time in creating the things that I believe have been given to me to steward, whether it's a novel or a song or you know, whatever it might be. Even if in my lifetime it's not published and not, you know, don't we have plenty of models of people whose like Van Gogh mm-hmm.

Whose artwork means so much to so many, but who only sold one painting for sure during his lifetime, maybe two. Mm-hmm. But both to a woman who was just sort of a patron of his A friend. Mm-hmm. Yeah. You know, do, can I have that kind of. Advancing of the Kingdom of God mentality where it doesn't depend on me.

Mm-hmm. Where I'm not invested in that way, in the outcomes of the things I do. Right. But I can trust God with those and know that it, that his timeline is, is not typically going to be my timeline. Mm-hmm. And that my agendas, um, are not usually gonna be quite exactly what his agendas are mm-hmm. For something.

Right. Um, so, so I started looking at, okay, what, what can I do? Rather than, I'd spent so many years chasing project after project desperately because I thought. Oh, I have to get a song cut right. With this band because they're one of the few that's still selling albums and you know, and yeah, it's not my kind of songs and I don't have any passion about writing for this, but I have to do that.

Or, oh, here's, someone's asked me to help them develop this curriculum for Sunday schools. And it's like, okay, I recognize the value of doing that. Right? But there is nothing in me that resonates with this. Mm-hmm. But they have some interest. So I spend some months doing that and then, you know, the publisher doesn't pick it up and it's just Right.

One thing after another like that. Right. Where there was just the aroma of desperation in what I was doing. 

[00:32:37] Heather Winchell: Right. Like grasping. Because 

[00:32:38] Douglas McKelvey: I want, I mean, I wanted to be able to provide for my family. Right, right. But at a certain point, you know, I also had to say, okay. Maybe these things aren't gonna provide.

Mm-hmm. So what are the, what are the things that maybe I have been uniquely prepared to do? What is the voice God has given to me? What are the things I am passionate about and that I might offer to people? So the, the obvious community that I was a part of that I could consciously think about how do I serve them was the rabbit room community.

Yeah. And, you know, with, with the first every moment Holy Book, which that idea did come about during this season. I mean, I was working on that science fiction novel that I talked about, but in the midst of that, this, this idea for every moment Holy came about, and I was pretty sure that I had enough of a, a finger on the pulse of, of who the, the rabbit room folks were.

That, that I thought that this idea will serve them. Mm-hmm. Will it serve anyone else outside of that? You know, maybe 2000 or 3000 people there who would appreciate it. I don't, I don't know, but I think this is something I could create an offer to them. Um, then it ended up being the rabbit room community, that, that made the launching of that project possible because I went to Rabbit Room Press, which was just one and a half employees at that time, and the half employee being a part-time employee.

Yeah. Um, and I pitched the idea for it and the managing editor halfway through my pitch, he, he said, let me just stop you right here and say, yes, we will publish this. This is exactly the kind of thing we want to do, but we're a small press. We don't have the budget to do this the way we would want to do it with leather cover and, you know, gold edged pages and a silk bookmark and, and just all the, all the stuff.

So he said, this is, this is gonna take 50 or $60,000 for a first printing and we don't have anything like that. Right. So you are going to have to give me time to figure out how we can do that. So what ended up happening was at the Rabbit Room conference that year, which is called Hutch Moot, um, we incorporated several of the prayers that I had written by them.

Um, so people used them like a, a liturgy for a purposeful gathering. Mm-hmm. We used to, to open the conference and, and then Andrew and Pete at the end of the conference pitched the idea. Of, Hey, there's this book we want to do. And people just even immediately after that started walking up and offering money.

Mm. Wow. Giving, giving money for this. And it wasn't a crowd funding thing where they were getting, so, you know, it wasn't a Kickstarter where they're going to get, even get a copy of the book for this. Right. But people were giving generously because to them they recognize this is something that we want our community to produce and to offer from our, from the Rabbit room community as a gift to the bride of Christ and to the, and to the culture.

Um, and so over the space of a year or so, people just kept giving and ultimately there was enough money to do the first printing and, and it's been self perpetuating since then. Yeah. But. You know, it would, it's, it's so much a, a project that's born out of community. Yeah. And on so many different levels.

We ask people for suggestions of topics they would want prayers for. Hmm. So a lot of the prayers that are in volume one were ones that, that people within the rabbit room community suggested as ones that they, they wanted Yeah. 

[00:36:49] Heather Winchell: For this fourth volume that you've just completed, was, was it similar? Did people kind of give recommendation or ask you for specific things?

Or was that more your own discerning process, um, in your own creating process? 

[00:37:03] Douglas McKelvey: It was a, a mixture. It, um, after volume three, I wasn't sure where I wanted to go next. Mm-hmm. I mean, I had some, some possible ideas. One of them was, was this, what the fourth book is, has turned out to be, which is aimed at, aimed at young people in.

Movement toward adulthood, time of life. But I didn't have a clear sense with this one. The others I just kind of knew. It was just like there. Mm-hmm. I need to need to do this one. So this fourth one really came about because a couple who are, well, he has served on the board of the rabbit room for a long time, but they were just so particularly passionate about this idea from the time they had first heard me mention it as a possibility years ago.

And they were tenacious. They wouldn't let it go because they're very involved with. Campus ministries and just have a heart for young people in that time of life when there's so much struggle and, um, you know, and big decisions. Just such a, yeah, big decisions, an important part of life in terms of, of spiritual formation or lack thereof.

So they, they just wouldn't let it go. So in the absence of having an interior sense of, yeah, this is where I'm gonna go with the next book, I will look at what, what other people around me are, are saying, you know, I'll look at that as direction. Yeah. And I'll head down that path. So I started working on it, but very quickly I asked them.

I asked Ned Buster, the artist who has three daughters in their twenties. I asked, uh, my pastor and his wife, 'cause she works at a, at a college. I asked these people to brainstorm lists of what, what are important topics to address in prayers for, for young people in this stage of life. Um, and then I would take those lists and send them to other people mm-hmm.

To get their feedback and their, you know, what, how they would rank those in terms of priority. And so, yeah, it, it was also very much a, 

[00:39:24] Heather Winchell: a community thing. A community involved 

[00:39:26] Douglas McKelvey: kind of, kind of effort. Yeah. 

[00:39:29] Heather Winchell: Yeah. Very cool. So it does sound like community has been a really rich part of this process for you.

I'm curious maybe even within your own community or outside of that, are there other thinkers, authors or artists that have made an impression on or influenced you in your work? 

[00:39:45] Douglas McKelvey: Hmm. Yeah, there are, there are definitely a, a lot of them, and you know, some of them I've, I've maybe mentioned already. I mean, Charlie, um, and Andy in the early days of the art house were a huge influence.

Uh, there are authors like Chesterton Okay. GK Chesterton. Mm-hmm. That just, you know, I wish I could think half as keenly as he did. Uh, I've been influenced by, by some of Andrew Peterson's writing his Adorning the Dark. Mm. Yeah. I think is a, a, a, a beautiful, thoughtful book. Yeah. I mean, there are lots of, lots of fiction writers that have heavily influenced me over the years.

Um, I mean, one of the obvious ones would be Tolkien and just the depth of the world and the cultures that he created, just his, you know, I see that as very much an extension of. His faith of his sense of the goodness of the creation that, you know, that, that God created and the, the order of it and the beauty of the, the, the different parts of it and the, the attention to detail that we see exhibited in the creation, in the, the world.

Mm-hmm. That, that God has made. And you know, he was doing everything he could to echo that kind of richness and depth and creating the histories and the languages. And, um, you know, he set a high bar that I don't think anyone else has, has matched though, uh, Jonathan Strange and Mr. Norrell was, was a pretty good attempt, you know, in its own way, I think, to, to create something that felt.

So much like a, a whole world that, a novel that Susanna Clark wrote. But yeah, it's, you know, I'm, I'm not always the best person at coming up with top 10 lists. Yeah. Off the top of my head or whatever. But, um, but for various reasons. There are lots of poets, uh, and, and fiction writers as well as those thinkers like Chesterton and, and Lewis.

You know, mere Christianity was very influential to me and 

[00:42:03] Heather Winchell: mm-hmm. 

[00:42:04] Douglas McKelvey: When I was in college. 

[00:42:06] Heather Winchell: Something else I'm curious about, and I wonder what this experience is like for you, Doug, you've kind of walked us through how every moment Holy came into being started with these ideas around maybe common experiences people have.

And then in volume two, you moved into a book specifically addressing various, like you said, the Dark Night of the Soul or the, the Valley of the shadow, a book on grief. Mm-hmm. And I think I might have mentioned when I asked whether you would join me on the podcast, that it's been a pretty significant.

Season of grief for me, for my family, for our friend group. And many of your liturgies have just been such a helpful and healing part of moving through that grief. I'm curious what it feels like for you to know that your words are shaping such intimate moments for people or that that in such holy moments of holding the reality that it is not the way it should be and it, it will all be made.

Right. But right now we are feeling the effect of the fall and the brokenness. And in those moments, your words are like part of what the spirit does to bring soothing and to help people feel seen and connected to God. Like how does it feel for you to know that reality or to hold that reality that your words share that that space with people?

[00:43:27] Douglas McKelvey: Mm-hmm.

From the beginning of this project, or, well, the, the year of writing volume one was a really hard year for me. The, the wheels just seemed to fall off almost every part of life. It was just, it was just a super hard year. Um, I felt so beat up by the time I got to the end of it that when Pete called me and told me, Hey, you know, the, the shipment of every moment holy is arriving today, you should, you know, come over.

And I, I went over there, you know, I opened the first box and Andrew was there, and, and he was, you know, he was shooting video of it. And I opened the box and it was, and what I felt was not like, oh, here's this book I made. It was like. Oh, you're the one that beat me up. Mm wow. Right here. Yeah. You know, you're my abuser, sort of.

And it was only after the book was released and had been out for a while and, you know, stories started to come back from people of what it meant to them that I like warmed up to the book. To the book in a way. Um, but I would, I would say at the, at the same time. Well, and as part of that, that there, there is this sense of detachment.

Hmm. Right. That in, in volume three in the forward, I talk about the, the miracle of the loaves and the fishes. Mm-hmm. And that image has shown up in multiple prayers. I don't know how many, but that's because I am that kid. I recognize that as I'm writing, that I do not have within myself. What is necessary to make of these something that could actually nurture and sustain the souls of other people.

Mm-hmm. Especially when it's prayers. Like so many of them were in volume two for specific things like the loss of a child. Mm-hmm. Where I approached that believing, having a sense that this, this prayer needs to be in the book. Mm-hmm. But who am I? It feels like utter presumption. You know, my wife and I had had two miscarriages, but we had not had the experience of losing a 5-year-old or a 17-year-old or so.

How could I presume to provide words that would articulate what's on the heart of a parent. Yeah. Who has just lost their kid. And yet I feel like this is a work set in front of me to do. Mm-hmm. And that became another thing that I realized along the way through the process of writing these is that, um, you know, there, there is this just beautiful, um, set of, of scriptures that when you begin to look at them altogether, that, that they tell us very clearly that God has prepared good works in advance for us to do, but also that God has prepared us for the doing of those works and that God is the one who will bring to completion the good works that he has begun in and through us.

Right. So I. So I began to recognize that, oh, this is like, I mean, all of the things that I've gone through, the, the failures, the doubt, the things I've had to wrestle through, those are actually part of the preparation of my heart and my understanding to, like, when I wrote a liturgy for those fearing failure, well that's when I'm driving for Uber and Lyft.

Mm-hmm. You know, right. Late at night and feeling like a failure. So it's, it's, you know, so, so there are those, some of the difficult prayers are ones that were directly from my own experience, but some of those other ones I recognized. Okay. A, if God doesn't show up and, and if his spirit does not meet me in the process.

Of trying to write this prayer, trying to struggle through it, such that the whole becomes more than the sum of the meager mm-hmm. Parts, the couple loaves and little fishes that I can bring to it. Then it's just, it's not gonna be helpful to anyone. 

[00:48:28] Heather Winchell: Right. 

[00:48:29] Douglas McKelvey: Right. It's so, but with volume two in particular, um, community became so important in a different way and that came about, about a year into the two year process.

And I was, I was reading lots of books about grief. I was reading lots of firsthand accounts of people writing about their own losses. And I was taking notes and I think the most beautiful one was lament for a son. Um, the author lost his. Adult son or teenage son in a mountain climbing accident. And it's just this beautiful tribute to his son in a way.

But it is this journey of his own grieving through that process. But it's very poetic and it's just, and actually in the course of reading that it allowed me to name as grief something that I had been carrying for years that was not the death of someone close to me, but was a huge loss mm-hmm. Related to someone close to me that I had just never realized that, that this, you know, heavy weight that's constant is actually grief.

That's, that's what that is. That there was something lost there that was precious and so. I had written, uh, several drafts of a liturgy for the hardship of holidays. Mm. Because I, you know, I knew that that was a particularly difficult time for a lot of people, especially if, if in the preceding year they had lost someone and this was gonna be the first year mm-hmm.

To go through Thanksgiving and Christmas. Yeah. And New Year's without that, that person they loved. But it was still a long way as it turned out, a year from, from finishing the manuscript. But I just thought, oh, I bet there are people who could use this now. Yeah. 'cause it was, it was early November maybe.

So I just did a Facebook post and said, Hey, I, you know, this prayer isn't completely finished, but it's pretty far along. If, if anyone you know, would like for me to send it to you, just send me a, a private message and, and, and I'll send it to you. And within a couple days, I think I had 150 or more responses.

Wow. And. Almost every one of them. There might have been one or two that didn't, but almost all of them didn't just say, you know, Hey, will you send me this? They told me their story. Mm. And you know, it was things like two weeks ago, my son was injured in a high school football game, and then he passed away and I don't know how we're gonna get through this.

Um, and you know, it was just story after story of people losing their parents, their siblings, their children, their friends. One guy, uh, sent me a message and, and said, um, Hey, I'm probably not gonna still be around when the book is published. I've been given three months. Do you have any prayers for someone in my situation that you would be okay to go ahead and send me in?

Um, and s so it took me two days. To respond to those messages. That's all I did for two days, because I felt like I can't just send them this. Right. I have, I need to acknowledge this grief that each person has, has opened to me, has, has, you know, entrusted me with Right. In a way. Right. And somewhere during the second day of doing that, I, I realized, oh, I'm just a little bit in doing this.

Um, stepping into that place of when we're, when Paul tells us to mourn with those who mourn. Yeah. That, that's under that umbrella of this is what it means to live as a follower of Jesus for your life to be, you know, this living sacrifice, this act of worship. Mm-hmm. One of the things he says is to mourn with those who mourn.

Mm. And he also says to rejoice with those who rejoice. Which is a cool thing that it's like that, you know. Uh, I mean, we, I think we see that embodied in, in Jesus more than in anyone else. Mm-hmm. That, you know, the joy doesn't negate the sorrow. Mm-hmm. But the sorrow doesn't suffocate the joy. Mm-hmm. You know, it's like alive to both of those things.

Mm-hmm. At the same time that that's what we're called to, but mm-hmm. Anyway, from that point, um, ISI kept in close contact with some people that I, that I started conversation with as a result of that. And there was one woman in particular who had just lost her husband and her seven and 9-year-old daughters in a fire in their barn.

And she had two sons and a younger daughter still alive. And so for the next year, um. On a weekly or multiple times weekly basis, we were exchanging emails and she just gave me this wide open window from the start mm-hmm. Of that, from the shock, you know, of initially through mm-hmm. That next year of what she was going through and what she needed prayers for, and there were things that never would've occurred to me.

[00:54:07] Heather Winchell: Right. 

[00:54:08] Douglas McKelvey: Like, she was the one who at a certain point, you know, maybe nine months or so after she said, I think I'm ready to take off my wedding ring. But this is such a significant thing and I really would like to have a liturgy took to mark that 

[00:54:23] Heather Winchell: right 

[00:54:24] Douglas McKelvey: time. So I, I wrote a liturgy for removing one's wedding ring, or I can't remember exactly how we titled it, but, um.

That never would've occurred to me. Right. And then there were other people that I knew, there was a couple in the rabbit room community who I knew had lost their son when he was six or seven, and it had been maybe close to a decade since they had lost him. But as I was working on, uh, a liturgy for the loss of a child, I asked them if they would be willing to, you know, to read the first complete draft of it and to give me honest feedback.

And they did. They, they told me, here are things that, you know, resonate with us. Mm-hmm. Um, here are some things that we think are important that would have mattered to us, but that you haven't. 

[00:55:14] Heather Winchell: Addressed. Addressed. Yeah. 

[00:55:16] Douglas McKelvey: And here are a couple things that, you know, might be unhelpful. Mm. Um, the one for losing someone to suicide as well.

Mm. Um, there was a, a woman that I knew who I knew, her 13-year-old brother that she had lost him to, to suicide years before. And so I had her read the different iterations of that and she gave me very honest feedback as well. Mm-hmm. And there was a certain part that she said, if my mom was reading this, she would just stop right there.

Hmm. Because that, you know, is not, that's not the right tone Yeah. For this, that, so I couldn't have, I couldn't have written many of the prayers in volume two without that kind of Right. Community involvement that I was, I was sending those to other people to vet them to give feedback. So it, it really was shaped by the community of the grieving.

Right. And I think that that whatever power there is in some of those prayers to, to genuinely articulate what would be on the heart of a person in that space who might not have their own words, but who as they pray the prayer, they recognize, oh, this is naming all these things right, that are swirling inside me.

That that is because there were people who were grieving those same kind of losses, who were willing to open up their experience mm-hmm. To me, to help shape those into something that could minister to those who were gonna follow in the same difficult footsteps that they themselves. Had walked through and were continuing to walk through.

So 

[00:56:59] Heather Winchell: yeah, that really strikes me, Doug, because you know, as I said, I've moved through a pretty difficult season and part of that season was the loss of a friend to suicide. And I remember that, that a loved one very close to them said this liturgy names the ache. Mm-hmm. Like this, this helps name the ache.

And why that feels really significant is because, you know, you, we kind of started this conversation talking about the loaves and fishes and how like your contribution matters and then God breathes on it. Right. But, but you coming with your contribution matters and it's just, I think it can be, huh. None of us want our contribution to be the experience of what it is to walk through that.

Right. Like the people, the community that helped you write these liturgies, I'm sure they wouldn't choose that contribution. Mm-hmm. Right. I wouldn't want my contribution to be from my experience of loss. Right, right. But how profoundly like. Beautiful. And only the way God can make something beautiful is it that that contribution is in fact the lifeline for somebody else.

Mm-hmm. Or, you know, what God breathes on to give somebody else hope in life. And so, yeah. That is really very striking. I'm so curious whether coming out of Book two felt like another beating and like a really hard beating because grief can be very hard on the body and the mind, or if that felt lighter somehow 

[00:58:26] Douglas McKelvey: it was different.

[00:58:27] Heather Winchell: Okay. 

[00:58:28] Douglas McKelvey: I wouldn't say it was lighter, but it was there, there was this steadily accruing gravity through the process of writing book two, but it, it wasn't oppressive. Mm-hmm. Like the, the, that season of writing book one just felt very oppressive. Mm-hmm. Um, and I wasn't able to name that till I got to the end of it.

And it just like. Almost instantly lifted. 

[00:58:56] Heather Winchell: Right. 

[00:58:57] Douglas McKelvey: Um, but with volume two it was more like this sense of, oh, this is actually moving toward maturity mm-hmm. In Christ. And you know, learning to mourn what those who mourn, learning a little bit of what it means to carry small bits of other people's burdens.

Mm-hmm. And their grief. And it's actually a good thing and a right thing. And it is a sobering thing and something that comes with gravity. But, um, yeah. It's interesting that you ask that because. A lot of people close to me, family and friends, during those two years of writing volume two were checking up on me in a very overprotective, almost pandering way.

You know, like they're talking to a kid. Are you doing okay? Because, you know, I know it must be, it is like they thought I was listening to goth music and you know, painting my fingernails black and you know, and thinking about death or something. What I was actually finding was that this was like a proving ground for the things I believe.

[01:00:04] Heather Winchell: Yeah. 

[01:00:05] Douglas McKelvey: That I'm looking, I'm kind of journeying through wrestling, through facing some of these worst possibilities and these most difficult things in human experience. And I'm finding at the bottom of them that the hope of Christ shines through and, and holds true that we are held. That there is a foundation that is.

Diamond hard that our feet hit that, and we aren't gonna sink through. We're not, you know, we are held. Mm-hmm. And so that was really my experience in, in writing volume two, was that, that I think I came out of it with my faith strengthened and with this sense that, yeah, I've done, I've done all the physics equations on this, and it, it, it, it works out.

It holds up, you know? Mm-hmm. This is, um, yeah, this, this eternal hope that we have is substantial. Mm-hmm. And it changes everything. 

[01:01:10] Heather Winchell: Changes everything. Yeah. Yeah. 

[01:01:12] Douglas McKelvey: Yeah. Absolutely. It doesn't make the pain go away, but it gives us the hope. Yeah, that, that ultimately the pain isn't gonna have the final word, it is gonna go away.

Death is gonna be the last enemy. That's a vanquished entirely and will be no more. You know, this is, this story has a good end. 

[01:01:33] Heather Winchell: Yeah, yeah, 

[01:01:34] Douglas McKelvey: yeah. 

[01:01:35] Heather Winchell: I believe that. So maybe the last question I have for you before we kind of transition to some fun, just get to know you. Questions would be, you've mentioned Andrew Peterson a couple of times, and he once wrote in one of his books, we have to fight an opposing force to bring something beautiful into the world.

It definitely sounds like you have experienced that apo, that opposing force, whether it be in things that didn't manifest or in just your own inner, you know, inner thoughts about where you were in life and things like that. But I guess as an encouragement to other people that might be persevering in their writing or in their contribution, uh, what counsel would you offer them and how would you encourage them to.

To keep pushing in to creating something good for the common good. 

[01:02:21] Douglas McKelvey: Mm-hmm. I think the place to begin is to ask what, what are the needs of the community around me and what am I uniquely gifted or positioned to offer in relation to that? And to let a service to others be the starting point for your projects.

And, and that doesn't dictate, you know, what genres, I think, I think any kind of creative work can fit into that. Mm-hmm. Um, but.

You can, you can write a novel, say with the goal being, oh, I want this to be the kind of bestseller that's gonna be in the airport bookstores. And, you know, and try to figure out what's the formula for those kind of pulpy fiction bestseller, you know, um, and chase that. Hmm. Or you can say what's actually going to awaken that eternal yearning in the hearts of people?

What's gonna stoke those flames? Which, going back to my reference to Tolkien, I think that's a big part of what he did for me. I didn't recognize it as a 13-year-old when I read the Lord of the Rings for the first time. But that yearning mm-hmm. For, for something that, you know, that that's, that you can't quite reach.

[01:04:01] Heather Winchell: Right. 

[01:04:02] Douglas McKelvey: In that case, because it's this fictional world, but it's actually. You know, something that I think the spirit of God is pleased to use to begin to stir those eternal hungers that later in life I come to fruition as we come to recognize that oh, in Christ. Mm-hmm. And in the future that he has promised for us in this, you know, world made new that we will live in forever and, and create.

Mm. Cultivate. And you know, that, that, that's what that yearning is, is for is, is for things as they were meant to be and for the presence of God. Um, so, you know, any project you can approach for different reasons, and I spent so many years, you know, arguably from a, a good starting place of it's like I need to provide for my family.

Right? Right. But my next step was to completely move away from questions of, okay, what. What would really serve people, what would be a benefit to them? And instead, I was saying, what would sell, what would, what could create income so that, you know, my, my wife would know that we're gonna be able to pay the mortgage next month.

Right, right. So, yeah, I think that that would probably be the biggest thing I would say is, is begin to look at it differently. It's the Kingdom of God operates on a different economy. Yeah. Right. It's not an economy of scarcity. It's not a zero sum game. It's not, oh, that person got that job. So that means I didn't, so, you know that one of the beautiful things about the Rabbit Room community has been that it is such a sounding board and an amplifier for the good things that are created within Mm.

That community. Mm-hmm. You know, when someone publishes a book or makes an album or you know, does a new painting that they share with people. Um, there's the sense of, oh, that's us. Mm-hmm. That's us who are citizens of the kingdom of God, advancing the kingdom of God in these various ways and these different mm-hmm.

Vocations and, um, and so I think that is the right vision for the church, for followers of Jesus to have in terms of, of all of our relationships and, and endeavors vocationally. Whether it's something that's in, in the creative art making realm or not. I mean, I think it's all creative ultimately, um, that we're all called to be creative in the ways that, that we approach whatever gifts and vocations we're given to Steward.

Yeah. But yeah, I think there, there's just this utterly different paradigm where there's freedom and there's. Community and there's mutual encouragement and understanding that, you know, that this is all, this is that we're all working toward the same goal. Yeah. And, and we get to do this together. This is a journey we get to make together.

Yeah. 

[01:07:14] Heather Winchell: Yeah. I love that. And I, I have the gift of being part of a community like that back in Colorado. It's called Every Little Seed, and it's just, yeah, it makes a world of difference to do it alongside other people. Yeah. So, all right. Just a couple of fun questions to close this out, Doug. If you could choose only a handful of books from your personal library, like you have to abandon most of them, you can just grab a few to take with you into the future, what are they?

[01:07:36] Douglas McKelvey: Hmm. Well, I mean, the obvious first one would be that, that I would take the Bible, um, is that has, you know, been and continues to be more formational to me in a daily way than, than anything else. Um. Beyond that? Oh goodness. That's, that's almost an impossible question to answer. Um, to continue on a theme, I would probably take, uh, the Lord of the Rings, um, because that's something that probably once a decade I return to.

Mm-hmm. And read again. I'm trying to think what, what book of poetry? Mm.

I don't know that I could choose. I would probably just be paralyzed and end up not getting to take many books at all, because I wouldn't be able to decide, 

[01:08:32] Heather Winchell: you know, Doug, I admit it's an unfair question 'cause I don't think I could choose either. So I'll, I'll give you a pass on the rest. The Bible's a pretty good start.

Alright. In your opinion, what is the best snack food to have on a family road trip? 

[01:08:44] Douglas McKelvey: You know, I'm, I'm mostly okay not snacking on things. Okay. When I'm on a road trip. Um, but let's see. Uh, dark chocolate covered coffee beans have, have been a good thing for keeping me awake. And I do like dark chocolate quite a bit, so I'll go with that.

[01:09:04] Heather Winchell: Alright. That is a solid choice. Okay. If the North Wind manner had a coffee drink inspired by one of your personal heroes, what would the drink be called and what would be in it? 

[01:09:15] Douglas McKelvey: I'm trying to think of titles of, of some of Chesterton's books that might lend themselves to the name of a good coffee drink.

I suppose we could call a coffee drink the Father Brown since, since coffee is brown as it turns out. Um, and what would be in it? I think it's gonna need a heavy element of cream. It is probably going to need some cinnamon. Maybe just a little bit of heat, like of some red pepper powder or something. Just a, just a tiny bit of it.

Or Chipotle actually. Yeah. Would that work with, yeah, that would work with cinnamon. So let's say, let's say we have the coffee, the heavy cream, the cinnamon, the Chipotle pepper powder. Just a, a little pinch of that and, you know, you can, you can add sweetener as you like. 

[01:10:18] Heather Winchell: Okay. Okay. Would you allow people to go iced or hot or would it just be hot?

[01:10:23] Douglas McKelvey: I think it's intended to be hot. Okay. But I suppose you could have it iced. Um, and then probably you're gonna wanna add a bit of, um, you know, steamed, uh, half and half foam to the top of it. 

[01:10:40] Heather Winchell: Yeah. This sounds great. I tell you what, maybe that should happen. Okay. So now I'd like to invite you to give your own shout out.

Who would you want to tell thanks for doing that and why? 

[01:10:51] Douglas McKelvey: There is an organization that I've only in the last six months or so really become aware of, called Help The Persecuted. Hmm. That just seemed to be doing amazing work, much of it in, in Middle Eastern countries. But, uh, a couple of the things that they're doing that I think are just so impressive and effective are people who are converts to Christianity from Islam in a lot of those countries.

Um, one of the kinds of persecution that they face is losing their jobs and any ability to have a livelihood and provide for their families. So one of the things that helped the Persecuted is doing is they have, um, a, a program to help. People in that position start their own businesses. Mm-hmm. Like a, you know, maybe a dry cleaning shop or, um, a seamstress kind of thing, or, um, but they just seem to have been so effective in such a practical way of, um, people whose, whose decision to follow Christ means that they're gonna be suddenly in poverty.

Hmm. Um, to give them a means out of that. Um, and they also have a number of safe houses in different country for people whose lives are, are in danger, where they, you know, are able to help them, um, have a place of safety as they, you know, figure out what the next step is. How to get them into another country that's safer.

Mm-hmm. What it, what it might mean. So, yeah. So I would give a, a shout out to them. Awesome. Um, because yeah, I'm just, just very impressed with. That it's not just temporary relief. Right. Kind of thing though. They do provide that sort of thing as well as needed, but 

[01:12:41] Heather Winchell: it's building a life, but they 

[01:12:42] Douglas McKelvey: really, yeah, they're so intentional and effective at what they're doing.

Yeah. 

[01:12:47] Heather Winchell: Yeah. Cool. Very cool. I'll try to find that and link it in the show notes. Okay. All right. To close us out, I write a haiku for each of my guests as a way to say thank you and to kind of summarize why I wanted to have you on. So I'm going to read your haiku for you. Okay? 

[01:13:00] Douglas McKelvey: Okay. 

[01:13:01] Heather Winchell: Alright. Thanks for doing that.

Pinning words that mark in shape each Holy moment. 

[01:13:08] Douglas McKelvey: Thank you. Yeah. 

[01:13:09] Heather Winchell: Thank you so much for your time and for joining me today. 

[01:13:13] Douglas McKelvey: I enjoyed it.

[01:13:25] Heather Winchell: Thanks for doing that, is presented to you by the apiary, a place for beholding and becoming, and thank you for joining us for today's episode. Before you go, I have a couple of invitations. If you found it meaningful, could I invite you to take two minutes to rate and review the show? I also invite you to help me create an upcoming episode of thanks for doing that, by nominating someone or suggesting a topic.

Let's link arms to call out the good and the beautiful that we see around us because I really believe that finding delight in our divided and difficult world could make all the difference.